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  #61  
Old 02-05-2016, 08:09 PM
Mölyapina's Avatar
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Quote:
Originally Posted by t walgamuth View Post
I think every 240D that I have owned had a governor which would prevent reaching 89 mph.
I think that governor is based on engine speed, so a lower diff should make a higher top speed possible. I have hit an indicated ~90 in my 240D turbo... I was wondering when a governor was going to kick in.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mannys9130 View Post
I agree, on a hill with a 2.88 will be KILLER on the clutch. Riding it like is necessary with a 2.88 will cause hot spots to form on the flywheel and heat cracks to form on the clutch disk. It would reduce life from the 150k miles that we see all day, to probably 75k miles.
150k is actually not that great... I would think that the average MB clutch would last longer if not driven by an unskilled pleb.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DieselPaul View Post
That governor is more commonly known as Physics. 89MPH is fast for a 240D. The USA autos top out more like 82mph and the 4speeds closer to 85. Only the Euro 5speed 240s with a little more power and a little more gear show 90MPH as a top speed on the spec sheet.
I think you'd still need a governor to keep people from passing redline on downhills...

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1982 300SD -- 211k, Texas car, tranny issues ____ 1979 240D 4-speed 234k -- turbo and tuned IP, third world taxi hot rod

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  #62  
Old 02-05-2016, 08:12 PM
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Grzpdlr: I think that what will really need to happen for people to buy this is for you to post a video of a hill start and maybe some city driving. It's just hard to believe what you are saying because it flies in the face of everything that we have all learned.
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1982 300SD -- 211k, Texas car, tranny issues ____ 1979 240D 4-speed 234k -- turbo and tuned IP, third world taxi hot rod

2 Samuel 12:13: "David said to Nathan, “I have sinned against the Lord.” And Nathan said to David, “The Lord also has put away your sin; you shall not die."
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  #63  
Old 02-05-2016, 10:34 PM
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No, 150k isn't great. I chose it because we see it all day like I said. It's easily attainable. Something like this ridiculous gearing would drastically shorten the clutch life. Worse yet, it would probably damage the flywheel quite a bit so it would need resurfacing or replacement...
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Last edited by mannys9130; 02-05-2016 at 11:08 PM.
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  #64  
Old 02-05-2016, 10:38 PM
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What's amazing to me is that the OP hadn't been killed in a road rage incident with such a slow vehicle.
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  #65  
Old 02-05-2016, 10:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mannys9130 View Post
Something like this ridiculous gearing would drastically shorten the clutch lice.
I didn't realize there were lice living on the clutch. Do longer clutch lice lead to better-wearing clutches? Biology is so cool.
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1982 300SD -- 211k, Texas car, tranny issues ____ 1979 240D 4-speed 234k -- turbo and tuned IP, third world taxi hot rod

2 Samuel 12:13: "David said to Nathan, “I have sinned against the Lord.” And Nathan said to David, “The Lord also has put away your sin; you shall not die."
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  #66  
Old 02-05-2016, 10:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mannys9130 View Post
What's amazing to me is that the OP hadn't been killed in a road rage incident with such a slow vehicle.
Well, forgetting the issue of getting going from a dead stop, I would just assume that he is making up for the tall gearing by shifting later... once he gets up to a decent pace, I don't really see it affecting performance negatively.
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1982 300SD -- 211k, Texas car, tranny issues ____ 1979 240D 4-speed 234k -- turbo and tuned IP, third world taxi hot rod

2 Samuel 12:13: "David said to Nathan, “I have sinned against the Lord.” And Nathan said to David, “The Lord also has put away your sin; you shall not die."
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  #67  
Old 02-05-2016, 11:07 PM
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Life. Lol

No, once he's at speed it'll be just like any. However, getting UP to speed and trying to recover after an interruption would be incredibly irritating to other drivers.
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  #68  
Old 02-06-2016, 01:05 AM
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maybe with the back seat out, 1/2 tank of fuel, and small tires, aluminum 5.5" hubbies... with the hubcaps off... and the fuel turned up all the way on the IP... it's possible. the manual 240 is a light vehicle...

I'd hate to try accelerating any hills from a slow start on a highway... the diesel has plenty of torque, so a standstill wouldn't be a problem but hills, and accelerating will be a pain...
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  #69  
Old 02-06-2016, 04:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mölyapina View Post
Grzpdlr: I think that what will really need to happen for people to buy this is for you to post a video of a hill start and maybe some city driving. It's just hard to believe what you are saying because it flies in the face of everything that we have all learned.
I don't have any experience with the 2.88, but the 3.07 accelerates up to 65 faster than stock by around a second.(every second counts these cars!!)
First gear was almost a wasted gear before, it's now a useable gear in stop and go driving up to 20-25 without having to rev the living s---t out of it.
As far keeping up with traffic, it's better than before the diff swap.
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  #70  
Old 02-06-2016, 10:03 AM
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well... i guess ill build my 300D 4 speed drive it around, then see how it does with taller and taller diffs...

everyone that's naysaying the swap is forgetting one thing... the diesel's torque.

slipping the clutch is not needed like on a gasoline motor...
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John HAUL AWAY, OR CRUSHED CARS!!! HELP ME keep the cars out of the crusher! A/C Thread
"as I ride with my a/c on... I have fond memories of sweaty oily saturdays and spewing R12 into the air. THANKS for all you do!

My drivers:
1987 190D 2.5Turbo
1987 190D 2.5Turbo
1987 190D 2.5-5SPEED!!!

1987 300TD
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1994GMC 2500 6.5Turbo truck... I had to put the ladder somewhere!
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  #71  
Old 02-06-2016, 11:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rotorbudd View Post
I don't have any experience with the 2.88, but the 3.07 accelerates up to 65 faster than stock by around a second.(every second counts these cars!!)
First gear was almost a wasted gear before, it's now a useable gear in stop and go driving up to 20-25 without having to rev the living s---t out of it.
As far keeping up with traffic, it's better than before the diff swap.
Do you think that that's because the engine runs in a better rev range longer than with the stock 3:69?
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1982 300SD -- 211k, Texas car, tranny issues ____ 1979 240D 4-speed 234k -- turbo and tuned IP, third world taxi hot rod

2 Samuel 12:13: "David said to Nathan, “I have sinned against the Lord.” And Nathan said to David, “The Lord also has put away your sin; you shall not die."
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  #72  
Old 02-06-2016, 02:13 PM
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I just thought I would add that I have a somewhat unusual 616 240d. Theoretically there could be others out there. It surprised me how well it did on the way home after purchase. I still want to call the observations my imagination. The run home was 1700 miles.

I just put it into storage until I had the bulk time to find out why. Or even if what was experienced real.

I was told it was and it looks and acts like a new engine. Still I would not have expected it to pull the rear end gears mentioned in this thread.

One thing I had not mentally checked and could answer some of the issue if there is already is a different rear end ratio in it? I never figured that engine could tolerate it. So never considered it before this thread.

It goes faster at the top end and seemed to get abnormal better fuel milage than I thought it should. It does not seem to be particularily sluggish on take off either.. Actually about the same as my other one that seems normal in comparison.

We always have adequate cars around so leaving that one in storage was not an issue. Also I deffered getting into it simply because I was uncertain of where to look in the engine compartment.

The engine appeared stock. So one change I suspected was the govenor in the injection pump might have been modified. Although that did not explain the higher fuel milage. It might explain the top end. The car blew no black smoke either so the fuel turned up was not there either.

For example it should have been taking more fuel at each top up than the jetta tdi diesel we took down when picking it up. It did take a little more of course but not that much. I knew what the jetta did milage wise and it was not old at the time.

Not wanting to be called crazy or having some reasonable explanation at hand I have resisted talking too much about this car.

This hopefully may be it. I also find that car frustrating. After siting in the garage for a long time. I decided to start it. Figuring if I did not give it any glow plug time it would roll over quite a lot and lubricate before coming to life. Basically expecting to go back and give it a glow plug application first.

So I just turned the key all the way over. The engine fired off right away. Not even delaying a second or two. It was just instantly running.

I had started a bone dry engine basically lubrication wise. I thought just great. That engine could get along quite well in reasonable weather with no glow plug function I think as well.

I do not find the cabin noise all that low at seventy though. It is possible the car tops out at about 110 MPH. This based on a friend of mine driving it behind me on highway 17 well outside Cleveland. The highway was empty that day and we were cruising along at 70. My friend becoming bored would drop way back almost out of sight and then come back up to me much faster than I thought the car was capable of.

At the next stop I asked and he told me he had 105 on the speedo and a little more pedal left. So I mentioned that they have police here as well and the engine revolutions are normally limited by the injector pump governor to protect the injection pump. Can you do me a favor and do not exceed 80 MPH. His response was can you at least cruise then at eighty.

I got back into the other car and said to myself. This is just great I have the fastest 240 manual car I have ever heard of. On top of that it gets better fuel milage than any I have ever heard of. Nobody is going to believe this. Even I was not convinced. Yet it bothered me.

Then years late the instantainious start up to add to it. Well at last perhaps this is why. What I will do is slide under the back end and look at the ratio stamp and post it on this thread. This will involve moving a lot of stuff away from the car though.

I will have to assume that someone changed the whole pumpkin. Not just the internal gears. There is no other logical explanation at this moment in my mind. Who would have thought these cars could run the much lower ratio rear ends? I do assume the engines have to be in pretty good shape to do it though.

Well if there is enough substance to this the n/a 300ds should also do well with the lesser gear ratios as well. We always thought and sensibly so that these engines could not pull a much lower rear end ratio. Maybe that was flawed?

I really do not have to slide under that 240d as there is no other probability for what was experienced. I also thought it was a little strange that a couple of my friends that drove it wanted to buy it the few days we kept it in service before storage.

This car appears to have had up until my time of purchase only extensive dealer service. Even if the pumpkin tag states the original ratio I will jack up one side put a piece of tape on the driveshaft and verify whatever ratio is in there.

Tom W speculated years ago that the replacement engine in this car may have been the euro engine. Unfortunatly that was not so.

Depending what is established soon enough. Tom will be sitting there thinking I just changed my rear end in the 240d. Timing is everything I suppose.

What I am more or less banking on is the posters milage claim sounds about in the ballpark of what I though mine was doing.

If I had posted it all long ago. The members would have told me this site is not ebay. Plus at the speeds it was capable of I should stop driving it over cliffs.

I really could not have blamed them. Not only doing it for myself but if something was found perhaps it could be applied to other 616 engines by members. That is why I decided to put it into storage as in service the opportunity to find whatever was unusual could be lost.

Now something might have been found. Not where I would have expected either.

Looking back had I used my tach to check top governed off rpms on the engine. This I would have done pretty early in testing. It might have clued me in the rear end ratio was different.

There is still a very small chance the engine is the one produced in India. Although I have never heard of one here and have no ideal If it looks different. Or has more power and greater revs.

Last edited by barry12345; 02-06-2016 at 02:24 PM.
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  #73  
Old 02-06-2016, 02:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vstech View Post
well... i guess ill build my 300D 4 speed drive it around, then see how it does with taller and taller diffs...

everyone that's naysaying the swap is forgetting one thing... the diesel's torque.

slipping the clutch is not needed like on a gasoline motor...
The 601 produces 96 lb/ft and 72 hp. The 616 is going to be less than that and the 123 is heavier than a 201.

My 190D is more forgiving than a gas engine in regards to taking off, but you definitely need to utilize the clutch. It isn't an I/O thing.
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  #74  
Old 02-06-2016, 03:36 PM
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Care may be needed in engine comparisons. I suspect without doing the research that the 616 and 617 engines may have been longer stroke engines.

Back in the day we got effects with long stroke engines that we never saw again once the engines became shorter stoked. Otherwise known as over square engines eventually I think. Or even just with the reduced stroke engines. We could use a graphed torque at Rpm chart for the 616.

Driving and accelerating from 5 mph in third gear was possible. Just slower in acceleration. The engines never baulked. The hp and torque ratings where not the greatest but they pulled strongly. A shorter stoke engine with the same HP/ torque rating probably would have quit in identical circumstances. There are of course other factors in general like modernized valve timing in the equation as well.

If this is so the HP/torque statistics might not be quite enough for valid comparisons. As for hills I find it normal to kind of run at them or at least try to hit them at speed with the 616. You can at most times hold the entering speed but if someone slows ahead and you drop some. Usually you can not get your lost speed back.

Those two seemingly very different 240ds of ours. By the seat of the pants seem about the same in hill climbing ability. I could not say if one is better than the other.

Some of these factors may allow seemingly some retention of hill climbing ability with lower ratio rear ends. Even if it seems to fly in the face of rational thought.

Also the clutch may be far larger than really needed for these engines. So they should cope decent enough in the new situation.

Members will be posting much more information soon enough to help establish things better.

I did comment earlier that this change might prove beneficial to the 617N/A cars as well. Perhaps not though as they all have automatic transmissions. The acceleration might drop off seriously because of the torque converters. Some of the claims of seriously decreased acceleration where by owners with the automatic transmissions.

Last edited by barry12345; 02-06-2016 at 04:00 PM.
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  #75  
Old 02-06-2016, 05:39 PM
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Apples to oranges I'm sure, ... but my first motorhome had a CAT diesel in it, max. RPM of 3200, 113lbs/hp. I was out of gears at ~62mph on the original 5.29:1 gears, wanted to go faster with less RPM, decided on a 4.63:1 screw. All of the forum knowledge told me that I would never be able to climb mountain grades, etc. etc. I didn't agree because I always can drop a gear, the only thing this would do is shift my ratios / move my upshift (and downshift) points, and change my 0-5mph time. I actually climbed MontEagle faster, because I was able to get down into 3rd gear sooner and hold 45mph (still passing some trucks).

It was the best money I ever spent on that old Wanderlodge, and I re-ratioed two more of them (one to 4.11) after, and several of the forum followers did the same with similar results.

Your 240D will be slower off the line, will be harder on the clutch on a hill-start, but you will be able to downshift sooner and just row the sucker like you know to do. If you live in SF, I'd consider staying with short gears, but out on the highway or in flatlands, ... give it a try. I wish I had something taller than my stock 2.65:1 screw and I'd take Belle on some longer drives.

Better would of course be an overdrive transmission, but that's another project for your future.

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