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  #16  
Old 12-08-2015, 10:26 AM
is thinning the herd
 
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It's also important to note Bluetec's are outside of most of this forums apparent price range at this point. When they get cheaper and there are even less W123s around people will start buying W211 bluetecs and talking about what complicated POSes the W212 E250 is.

Look at posts like 5 years ago, people talked about how horrifying the CDI is, and now everyone on here has one. Common-rail? Oh my gosh you mean I can't adjust out idle problems with a screw driver? How will we ever fix it?

Bluetec is a good car, the few actual owners who have posted in this thread so far have not echoed the thoughts of those who don't own them. That being said, I know 79mercy has worked on them and I appreciate his insights on the matter.
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68 280SL - 70 280SL - 70 300SEL 3.5 - 72 350SL - 72 280SEL 4.5 - 72 220 - 72 220D - 73 450SL - 87 200TD - 87 300D - 90 190E 2.0 - 03 G500 - 06 E320CDI

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  #17  
Old 12-08-2015, 11:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DieselPaul View Post
It's also important to note Bluetec's are outside of most of this forums apparent price range at this point. When they get cheaper and there are even less W123s around people will start buying W211 bluetecs and talking about what complicated POSes the W212 E250 is.

Look at posts like 5 years ago, people talked about how horrifying the CDI is, and now everyone on here has one. Common-rail? Oh my gosh you mean I can't adjust out idle problems with a screw driver? How will we ever fix it?

Bluetec is a good car, the few actual owners who have posted in this thread so far have not echoed the thoughts of those who don't own them. That being said, I know 79mercy has worked on them and I appreciate his insights on the matter.
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Greg
2012 S350 BlueTEC 4Matic
2007 ML 320 CDI
2007 Leisure Travel Serenity
2006 Sprinter 432k
2005 E320 CDI
1998 SLK230 (teal)
1998 SLK230 (silver)
1996 E300D 99k, 30k on WVO
Previous:
1983 240D, on WVO
1982 300D, on WVO
1983 300CD, on WVO
1986 300SDL 237k, 25k on WVO (Deerslayer)
1991 350SDL 249k, 56k on WVO - Retired to a car spa in Phoenix
1983 380 SEC w/603 diesel, 8k on WVO
1996 E300D 351k, 177k on WVO

2007 ML320 CDI .. / 2005 E320 CDI .../ 1998 SLK 230 .../ 1991 Daihatsu Rocky
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  #18  
Old 12-08-2015, 11:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jay_bob View Post
It's not the DEF per se but the fact that MB deletes the spare tire for the reservoir.

Run flat tires are very expensive, 2x the cost and 1/2 the life of regular tires. Especially 19's as used on the MLs.
The wolf in sheep's clothing is the S350 Bluetec (2012,2013)--damn what a car, driven severely in my search, AND it has a compact spare!!! The DEF tank is under the spare. Too bad the GL350s with the extra space, didn't come with a compact spare. The ML, GL and E DEF BlueTecs all suffer the runflat dilemma, but then BMW has runflats on about everything they make irrespective of fuel? Go figure. . .

Reference the 648/642 I read similar paper about the compact design of the 642 gave it multi platform compatibility without having to have 648/647/646 iterations to fit different applications. Additionally, the 648/7/6 were all iron block aluminum head, the 642 is all aluminum and with the later model head and programming improvement, MB cranks out 422 lb/ft of torque, up from the introduction models that had 369 lb/ft. HP is up too, but I don't recall. 642 has become the mainstay of the sprinter fleet. Emissions had nothing to do with the changeover in my reading.

Interestingly, the 2.1 OM651 twin turbo L4 cylinder is rated at 200HP/369#Torque, the same as the 07 642s. . .
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Mark
========
THE WHITE FLEET
2012 S350 Bluetec==81k WHITE
2007 ML320 CDI==145K WHITE
2005 E320 CDI--138K--WHITE
1995 E300-Diesel-329K--THE CAR IS BLUE. (For Sale!)

Under new management:
1986 300SL--97.5K (European) AND WHITE.
1991 190E 2.3-73K California Perfect.--WHITE
1995 E320-Wagon-159K--WHITE (recently scrapped)
1987 300D Turbo-213K--WHITE
1987 190D 2.5 Turbo-288K--WHITE

Last edited by markg612; 12-08-2015 at 12:15 PM.
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  #19  
Old 12-08-2015, 01:20 PM
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Emissions requirements did drive the change. Starting in 2004 the US introduced 10 "Bins" of differing emissions compliance levels. Bin 1 is the cleanest (zero emissions) and Bin 10 is the dirtiest. Over time increasingly cleaner levels are required of light duty passenger cars. Bins 9 and 10 were no longer permitted as of the 2007 model year. Bins 6, 7, and 8 were no longer permitted as of the 2010 model year.

The om648 E320 CDI is a Bin 10 vehicle, hence not legal for sale in the US after 2006. The om642 E320 Bluetec is a Bin 8 vehicle, so OK for sale from 2007 through 2009 model years. The e350 Bluetec (with DEF) introduced in 2010 is a Bin 5 vehicle (which also happens to have been the California standard all along).

For comparison, Bin 10 permits 0.6 grams/mile of NoX, Bin 8 is 0.2. Bin 10 permits 0.8 grams/mile of particulate matter, Bin 8 is 0.2. CO and Formaldehyde standards are the same between the two. So there are significant reductions in NoX and PM emissions going from the 648 to the 642 - approximately 70%.
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  #20  
Old 12-08-2015, 01:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jcyuhn View Post
Emissions requirements did drive the change. Starting in 2004 the US introduced 10 "Bins" of differing emissions compliance levels. Bin 1 is the cleanest (zero emissions) and Bin 10 is the dirtiest. Over time increasingly cleaner levels are required of light duty passenger cars. Bins 9 and 10 were no longer permitted as of the 2007 model year. Bins 6, 7, and 8 were no longer permitted as of the 2010 model year.

The om648 E320 CDI is a Bin 10 vehicle, hence not legal for sale in the US after 2006. The om642 E320 Bluetec is a Bin 8 vehicle, so OK for sale from 2007 through 2009 model years. The e350 Bluetec (with DEF) introduced in 2010 is a Bin 5 vehicle (which also happens to have been the California standard all along).

For comparison, Bin 10 permits 0.6 grams/mile of NoX, Bin 8 is 0.2. Bin 10 permits 0.8 grams/mile of particulate matter, Bin 8 is 0.2. CO and Formaldehyde standards are the same between the two. So there are significant reductions in NoX and PM emissions going from the 648 to the 642 - approximately 70%.
Excellent data, I still believe from what I've read, the platform compatibility was the economic driving force, and the emissions piece could have been applied to the 648/7/6 design. I don't believe the base 642 design is inherently cleaner than the 648/7/6. I believe one bin 5 engine certification was far more cost effective than bin 5 certification of 3 engines just to get platform compatibility.

FWIW I live in California, these idiots in government here haven't an ephing clue as to the repercussions of ill thought out legislation. Sounds good on paper and gets them re-elected, but the costs and implications are never considered. This place is living proof education without real life experience doesn't produce real world functionality. This state is a farce, but that's a different debate.
__________________
Mark
========
THE WHITE FLEET
2012 S350 Bluetec==81k WHITE
2007 ML320 CDI==145K WHITE
2005 E320 CDI--138K--WHITE
1995 E300-Diesel-329K--THE CAR IS BLUE. (For Sale!)

Under new management:
1986 300SL--97.5K (European) AND WHITE.
1991 190E 2.3-73K California Perfect.--WHITE
1995 E320-Wagon-159K--WHITE (recently scrapped)
1987 300D Turbo-213K--WHITE
1987 190D 2.5 Turbo-288K--WHITE
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  #21  
Old 12-08-2015, 03:02 PM
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I maintain a 09 e350 bluetec that has just recently turned over 110,000 miles. Other than routine service, an intake runner actuator (don't remember proper term) and a glow plug module there has not been anything out of the ordinary in regards to reliability ossues. It has started seeping a little oil that looks like it is eventually going to need oil cooler seal over next year or so. I would own one but personally I hate run flat tires.
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  #22  
Old 12-08-2015, 03:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markg612 View Post
Excellent data, I still believe from what I've read, the platform compatibility was the economic driving force, and the emissions piece could have been applied to the 648/7/6 design. I don't believe the base 642 design is inherently cleaner than the 648/7/6. I believe one bin 5 engine certification was far more cost effective than bin 5 certification of 3 engines just to get platform compatibility.
I do tend to agree with you. There isn't anything on the 642 that couldn't be replicated on the 648 with respect to emission control technology. One additional thing that I think could have played into the decision to build a v6 is the Euro pedestrian crash safety standards. Meeting these typically requires a car have 5 or 6 inches of open space below the hood before meeting the first hard parts of the engine. This would seem much easier to achieve on a wide angle v6 than an inline engine.

Quote:
Originally Posted by engatwork View Post
I maintain a 09 e350 bluetec that has just recently turned over 110,000 miles. Other than routine service, an intake runner actuator (don't remember proper term) and a glow plug module there has not been anything out of the ordinary in regards to reliability ossues. It has started seeping a little oil that looks like it is eventually going to need oil cooler seal over next year or so. I would own one but personally I hate run flat tires.
The intake flap motor thingy is a common enough repair. It dies from oil dripping off the intake at the turbo inlet. Unfortunately there doesn't seem to be a fix for this little leak.

Is it a 211 or 212? The w211 bluetec uses conventional tires (albeit in a not so common size) and has a compact spare. The 212 uses the spare tire well for the DEF tank and hence has runflats.
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  #23  
Old 12-08-2015, 03:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jcyuhn View Post
One additional thing that I think could have played into the decision to build a v6 is the Euro pedestrian crash safety standards. Meeting these typically requires a car have 5 or 6 inches of open space below the hood before meeting the first hard parts of the engine. This would seem much easier to achieve on a wide angle v6 than an inline engine.
Interesting, did not know of this!
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  #24  
Old 12-08-2015, 07:29 PM
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09 I maintain is the w211. I'm referring to run flat tires in general. See enough of them on BMWs.
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  #25  
Old 12-08-2015, 07:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mannys9130 View Post
Yep, the 642 is just more complex, harder to work on, repair intensive, and not as durable. The 648 seems to pack on the miles with very little besides regular maintenance.
Hope so.
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  #26  
Old 12-08-2015, 08:57 PM
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The special Mobil 1 oil for the Bluetec is available from Amazon. I bought four six-packs at about $8.35 a quart (free delivery). The last purchase I made at the dealer was over $12 a quart.
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  #27  
Old 12-08-2015, 09:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DDAY View Post
The special Mobil 1 oil for the Bluetec is available from Amazon. I bought four six-packs at about $8.35 a quart (free delivery). The last purchase I made at the dealer was over $12 a quart.
Walmart. 5 quart jug / $26.++
__________________
Greg
2012 S350 BlueTEC 4Matic
2007 ML 320 CDI
2007 Leisure Travel Serenity
2006 Sprinter 432k
2005 E320 CDI
1998 SLK230 (teal)
1998 SLK230 (silver)
1996 E300D 99k, 30k on WVO
Previous:
1983 240D, on WVO
1982 300D, on WVO
1983 300CD, on WVO
1986 300SDL 237k, 25k on WVO (Deerslayer)
1991 350SDL 249k, 56k on WVO - Retired to a car spa in Phoenix
1983 380 SEC w/603 diesel, 8k on WVO
1996 E300D 351k, 177k on WVO

2007 ML320 CDI .. / 2005 E320 CDI .../ 1998 SLK 230 .../ 1991 Daihatsu Rocky
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  #28  
Old 12-09-2015, 07:49 AM
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Walmart don't carry the esp oil.
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  #29  
Old 12-09-2015, 12:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by engatwork View Post
Walmart don't carry the esp oil.
Yup, I was thinking of the last oil change in the 2005 cdi, not the 2007 ML cdi.

The last time I needed it, I googled it and found it for less then $7 / qt. in a 6 qt. case. One other time I got it from NAPA, special order, when it was on sale for about $6.50 / qt in a 6 qt. case.
__________________
Greg
2012 S350 BlueTEC 4Matic
2007 ML 320 CDI
2007 Leisure Travel Serenity
2006 Sprinter 432k
2005 E320 CDI
1998 SLK230 (teal)
1998 SLK230 (silver)
1996 E300D 99k, 30k on WVO
Previous:
1983 240D, on WVO
1982 300D, on WVO
1983 300CD, on WVO
1986 300SDL 237k, 25k on WVO (Deerslayer)
1991 350SDL 249k, 56k on WVO - Retired to a car spa in Phoenix
1983 380 SEC w/603 diesel, 8k on WVO
1996 E300D 351k, 177k on WVO

2007 ML320 CDI .. / 2005 E320 CDI .../ 1998 SLK 230 .../ 1991 Daihatsu Rocky
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  #30  
Old 12-09-2015, 03:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by engatwork View Post
Walmart don't carry the esp oil.
My last Mobil 1 ESP was from Pep Boys Auto Parts - a Southern California-based company. You may not have them in the East though. A LOT cheaper than the MB Dealer.
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