Or maybe it was even earlier, when they started putting those butt ugly bumpers on them for the US market. I can't quite imagine taking a car like this:

And attaching this huge overhanging shelf on the front (and the rear) of it.


Richard

The above, gentle readers, makes my point that items are made to what the customer wants. It makes little sense to build something that lasts forever ( at an increased price ) when many customers are not going to keep it forever, balk at the price and go buy something else at a lower price that still fulfills the need.

Up until the late 70's International Harvester built Pickups , Scout and a Traveall ( pickup based Suburban type ) . These had the same engines that were found in school buses, 2 1/2 ton dump trucks. Yes the engine would last forever. The problem it ate fuel, took forever to warm up and weighed more than anyone elses big block. And it wasn't that power full, for 266 , 304 , 345 and 392 CID.

Compare to a Chevy 350 , Ford 351 W , Dodge 360 or even an AMC 360. These motors would not last forever but they generally lasted long enough and were a better fit for a light truck seeing general duty. About the only market ( rather small back then ) International had sown up was people that towed trailers. From what I recall IH won Trailer Lifes's truck of the year every year except one when Chevy came in with more features.

The IH saga brings up another point, a device that lasts forever might have higher operating costs. If one looks at total cost of ownership, the "it wears out sooner" design might come out ahead overall.

Many on this list ( especially the diesel drivers ) are milking the last few miles out of a car. This market makes very little $ for a company since the original sale was eons ago. A car maker is going to cater to the _NEW_ car buyer not the _USED_ car buyer in order to make a profit.

Computers go down in price so much due to better manufacturing methods. Squeezing more memory out of a silicon wafer doesn't really take more material.

Do you expect a raise at your place of employment? Guess where the extra $ for a raise comes from?

And you continue to ignore the CPI inflation calculator CPI Inflation Calculator Please make a list of what you paid in the good old days and run it into the calculator. Post what the old day cost was in today's $ and the actual selling price of the same item today. Some items have gone up due to increased costs, however most have gone down.

Remember to have a look the link I posted to the Vintage section listing 1870 MB prices.

Those bumpers were a result of the US govt 5 MPH impact without damage requirement. Every car had these so you can hardly blame MB.

Yes, but the 5 mph aluminum & black-strip bumpers BMW started using in the '70s, and Mercedes later put on the W123s, were far more attractive than the massive chrome & rubber 'park-benches' Mercedes stuck on the W107, 114, 115 and 116.

Happy Motoring, Mark

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DrDKW

But, as referenced by your below comment many of the original Mercedes diesels have epic miles already on them. Evidently, someone DID pay the premium and DID choose to use it in the way it was built. And, I think Mercedes WAS profiting from the sale of those cars as well as continued parts and service.

I would even say Mercedes would not have an iota of the reputation they have today and probably the market share if they failed to build their business this way. They once referred to it as the best or nothing. If you didn't want the best, you could go buy a Ford or a Chevy and save your money.

What responsibility is it of the market to keep supporting a manufacturer with buying new cars every X years? It was said earlier on this thread that Mercedes stopped selling to smart people and chose to focus on rich people. I'm sure nearly every business would rather sell a widget several times to the customer than just once... the question is whether the market holds the seller to demands of reliability or is willing to except less in exchange for a newer car more often.

I also think it has been well demonstrated that these cars can be infinitely fixed and rebuilt with the same OEM parts. Who is to say they are on their last legs? I would say based on my viewings from newer cars that many of the old diesels have a lot more life in them than a brand new Mercedes.

Dkr.

Not many remember these days, but Mercedes cars were sold through Studebaker dealers in the 50's and 60's. The best thing that happened to Mercedes was Studebaker going out of business, as that's where the dealer network came from.

My friend at Toyota has an interesting theory about the demise of quality at about the W140. An over simplification, but he says Lexus happened. There was never anything as good as an MB up to then. At that point they stepped out on the slippery slope of competition.

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79 300TD “Old Smokey” AKA “The Mistake” (SOLD)
82 240D stick shift 335k miles (SOLD)
82 300SD 300k miles
85 300D Turbodiesel 170k miles

I suspect that BMW had 5 MPH in mind since the beginning of the model design where MB was already locked down and the bumpers were a hurry up and make it work add on. Or maybe the original MB design didn't lend it's self to BMW style bumpers.

I don't have any info as to when the MB and BMW designs were locked down to prove or disprove this.

I'd agree with that, have a look at Sony arguably the MB of electronic devices. The quality of lesser brands rose very quickly and Sony was still trying to sell items that were only slightly better, at a premium price.

Another thing was happening back in the1970's in most big companies in the US and Europe: Accountants became the CEO's, replacing the operating men who had always run them. For instance, we once had Engine Charley Wilson running GM. But in the 70's and 80's we had Roger Smith, an accountant. That's when the philosophy of the big 3 shifted from "make what the customer wants" to "make what we can make the most money on and sell it to the public". Within 10 years the Honda Accord was the best selling car in the US.

Richard

That would be valid when (smart ) people tended to keep cars long term. In the US a car has always been a fashion statement more than a utilitarian device bought with logic rather than emotion. The very basis of GM in the 20's was to make every model year of car different as to make the previous model look old and the fashion driven owner but a new one.

A company has to go to where the money is otherwise they will shrink and fold. If someone started a company that produced computer keyboards that were more logical than the "designed to slow typists down so the mechanical typewriter won't jam", they won't fill much more than a small market.

I do recall car magazines in the 80's or so saying that MB was not a luxury car but a well built car. People that bought them were starting to complain that the windows were not power, had a manual adjusting mirror on the left side and maybe a power one on the right and the seats were hard. ( thought offered great support for long trips )



In the day MB was worlds away in terms of quality, even a VW could be considered worlds away in quality compared to USA brands. Where MB got caught off guard was lesser brands increased quality so there was not as much of a gap between MB and US marks.




It isn't the responsibility of the market but more a reflection as to a company going where the money is.
Any car can be fixed indefinably ( short of chasing rust.) , it becomes a matter of it being economically feasible when faced with the cost of a replacement unit. Not many people rebuild the engine on an $ 80 weed wacker.

And, a diesel "car" won't last any longer than a gas "car" since the only difference is the engine, rebuild a gas engine and the "car" will rack up as many miles as the diesel "car". With modern fuel control on gas engines and upcoming natural gas models, we will see gas engines live longer lives.

I was once also told a story that I've yet to confirm, that the owner of BMW Herbert Quandt was forced by an antitrust act to divest his family's stake in Mercedes. The story went after rescuing BMW and making four wheeled cars Quandt divested from Mercedes and poached some of the talent in he 80s. Which according to the tale improved BMW and hurt Mercedes.

All I could find was this. Herbert Quandt apparently inherited a stake in Mercedes from his father Guenther.

Nazi Goebbels

Anyone hear about such a divestiture?

Edit- just found this. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herbert_Quandt

Herbert Quandt sold his 10% stake of Daimler in 1974. They made some awfully good w123,124,126 cars after the divestiture. Not to mention Quandt died in 82. The story doesn't seem to hold water.

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79 300TD “Old Smokey” AKA “The Mistake” (SOLD)
82 240D stick shift 335k miles (SOLD)
82 300SD 300k miles
85 300D Turbodiesel 170k miles

Or they will need to re-adapt to the demands of the market. It's a given that we will always need transportation, but it's foolish to think that every person will need a new car every X years. Easy credit makes this artificial market possible, which is just that -- artificial.

Perhaps in theory, yes but with functional obsolescence that theory will never be put into practice. There's a reason why you still see a bunch of pretty healthy and not so healthy MB diesels on the road as daily drivers, while you don't see similar cars from other makes.

It's because the parts are reubildable, modular, and extremely well built in the first place which is a workable solution when nobody is selling a part anymore and because the owners can DIY the car which is not feasible on a newer Mercedes.

Perhaps we will see more longevity on newer gas and natural gas engines, but the rest of the car will be built with a business plan in mind -- to get the car off the road as quickly as possible and they will still end up in the junkyards quickly, with or without a well-running engine.

Dkr.

Well, I have been doing some work on my daughter's 2002 ML320 and I am really disappointed in the build quality - especially compared to my daily driver 1981 300SD.

For example the top of the center console is padded and lifts up to reveal a shallow and then a deeper compartment. The lift up padded top broke off. When I looked at it I saw that instead of a metal hinge it has molded plastic tubes - about one inch long on each side. That forms a plastic hinge with a metal hinge pin. Both of the plastic tubes had broken. This would have never happened on my SD.

Next the underside of that padded top seemed to be loose. It is attached to the top with screws but was noticeably loose. I removed the screws and looked inside; I found to my surprise that each screw was designed to be tightened into a fixed tubular nut - but the nut was plastic. Every one of those nuts was broken. Ie, not meant to last. And there is no way to repair; all I could think of was to glue it together. For shame.

The MB engineers of the 70's and 80's must be turning over in their graves.