There was a "study" in an English car magazine several years ago, wish I could find it, which may have been somewhat tongue-in-cheek, but it talked about what creates a truly small carbon footprint in a vehicle. It put the Prius footprint fairly large because of materials, methods, and life-expectancy of the car, where their pick for the smallest carbon footprint was the Land Rover Series / Defender, ... due to its long life expectancy reducing the impact of production, and the materials used (aluminum, steel, magnesium) being recyclable.

Now I don't believe that this article was completely based in science, but it did make a point that building new high-tech vehicles that take much energy and many resources, the recycling of which takes more energy and resources, and cars designed to be replaced frequently is not a sustainable strategy.

However (here we go again), our economy is based on waste, obsolescence, disposable products and packaging and could not absorb the swift reversal of that throw-away obsession without at least partial collapse (global, not just US).

Bill: The classic Prius (gasoline/parallel hybrid) doesn't really count as an EV to me, and is less of a alternative-fuel vehicle than a same-year Golf tdi IMO. I know this is not everyone's opinion but my co-workers' Priuses were small cars, smaller and lighter than the Golf with less luxury, power, and harsher ride, and didn't deliver as good highway fuel mileage nor combined mileage as others' Golf/Jetta tdis. Downsize the Golf, remove some of the nicer features, install a smaller and more efficient engine to more closely resemble those early Priuses and you can come close even to the Priuses city MPG.

The Chevy Volt appealed to me because it is a series-hybrid or extended-range plug-in. If I were to have extra money and space I'd love to have one to run errands around town, probably never use gasoline unless I'm using it and something unexpected happens and I need to dash off! Perfect, and series-hybrid is what most universities and research centers have been showing at SAE for 25years, not overpowered parallel hybrids like most Priuses and ridiculous examples like the Escalade "hybrid".

Tesla cars are not revolutionary in design nor technology, everything in them is technology that has been around for years, but I must applaud Elon, Ian and others for taking the risk and developing Tesla Motors, it has shown the industry that there is a market.

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Gone to the dark side

- Jeff

Some sort of hybrid is the future because it harvests energy that would otherwise be turned into heat under braking. As technology advances straight EVs in limited use will become more economical.

However, a hybrid does nearly nothing for a highway cars energy use. At work they wanted to trade in the Ford Fusion Hybrid for a Camry hybrid. This cars slot sees 25,000+ miles a year with 98% of that on the highway. I directed them to a govt web site that calculates pay back, with 2 % around town it would take something like 10 years and 250,000 miles to break even "if" the battery would last that long. We ended up with a straight gas Ford Edge.

https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/hybridCompare.jsp

We had a dumbarse peel out of the parking lot at the mill the other day doing all he could rolling coal in his jacked up, four wheel drive Dodge Cummins. Pulling out right behind him was a representative from the Environmental Protection Division of the Ga Dept of Nat'l Resources.

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Jim

Is this a peachparts record - 63 posts in less than 3 days? Incredible education on the subject from all you guys! I read all 63 posts. Only thing to do now is take my '95 NA diesel to work tomorrow like I always do and think about philosophy since my radio doesn't work any more.

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dtf
1994 E320 Wagon (Died @ 308,669 miles)
1995 E300 Diesel (228,000)
1999 E300 Turbodiesel ( died @ 255,000)
2006 Toyota Tundra SR5 AC 4X4 (115,000 miles) rusted frame - sold to chop shop
2011 Audi A4 Avant (165,000 miles) Seized engine - donated to Salvation Army
BMW 330 xi 6 speed manual (175,034 miles)
2014 E350 4Matic Wagon 128,000 miles
2018 Dodge Ram 21,000 miles

This is another example of rumor as truth. The break-even point for natural gas is about 3% leakage. Above that, and the global warming effect of leakage exceeds the reduced CO2 emissions from consumption. The problem is, nobody really knows how to measure leakage yet. As for "frack gas" being a disaster, no. The largest methane emissions hot spots in the US occur in the "four corners" area of Arizona, New Mexico, Colorado, Utah. These emissions predate the use of fracking techniques. Nobody knows why, and there are efforts underway to pinpoint the source. Here's a well balanced report, if you have the patience to read through it:

Methane Matters : Feature Articles

Friends from the city often tell me the sort of stuff you've written here. I ask them to go out to Susquehanna county in PA some weekend, and see the largest fracking operation in the northeast. Just 120 miles west, but nobody ever goes. 1000 wells, and if you don't know where they are you'll never see one. Environmental disasters are nowhere to be found. What is striking is the obviously increasing wealth as you drive south from Binghampton NY (the anti-fracking capital of the world). As the wealth builds without obvious downside, folks in the southern tier of NY state are beginning to wonder why they are consigned to living in poverty.

When the final analysis is in, natural gas production may be proven bad. But we're a long, long way from that point.

Hybrids are an environmental disaster and never should have been allowed to be produced. No only is there the issue of the horrible consequences of producing the lithium or nickle - and COPPER, a large quantity of it is required for each vehicle - there is also the issue that, other than the copper, little of the above can be recycled. No technology currently exists to break either NMH or LiON batteries down to their component parts and return them to the production stream. Currently, the manufacturers are being required to store the batteries until such technology is developed but the last I heard this tech is NOT on the horizon. All-electric cars may be slightly better - but not much.

For every "answer" there are 10,000 questions. What seems like a solution really - isn't.

Dan

This is no longer accurate, recycling of EV batteries is happening right now.

http://www.retrievtech.com/batteries/electric-and-hybrid-vehicles

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617 swapped Toyota Pickup, 22-24 MPG, 50k miles on swap

For all practical purposes on the electrical side, a hybrid is just a electric car with a smaller battery. So I don't see a the larger battery in a EV a lesser enviro issue than a hybrid, more like other way round.

I like a hybrid because it reuses energy wasted under barking. Some transit buses have experimented / used compressed air as a energy storage medium, others have used a flywheel to counter battery issues.



The solution is for the "save the planet" people is to stop reproducing, people are largest hazard to the environment.

This is great news! Nowhere in their write-up does it actually SAY that they can recycle NiMH batteries though I'll assume that can as they DO say that they can recycle LiON batteries, a more complex technical issue. I'm still not a fan of hybrids but this makes them a sit a bit easier in my mind.

Dan

This is unsubstantiated internet BS.

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CENSORED due to not family friendly words

Wait until all these roof top home solar panels need to be tossed, that'll probably be one big heap of toxic trash.

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1981 240D Four on the floor, Orient Red over Parchment, bought with 154,000 but it's a daily driver and up to 180,000 miles, mostly original paint and all original interior.

No not at all

Start a thread saying you're going to use oil of olay as engine oil - argue that it is the best thing - and see what happens!

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1992 W201 190E 1.8 171,000 km - Daily driver
1981 W123 300D ~ 100,000 miles / 160,000 km - project car stripped to the bone
1965 Land Rover Series 2a Station Wagon CIS recovery therapy!
1961 Volvo PV544 Bare metal rat rod-ish thing

I'm here to chat about cars and to help others - I'm not here "to always be right" like an internet warrior



Don't leave that there - I'll take it to bits!

UPS was experimenting with hydraulic brake regenerating... Basically, hydraulic motors on the wheels, and a pressure tank builds pressure under braking, and releases it to power the wheels ...
I like that type of hybrid... No batteries!

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John HAUL AWAY, OR CRUSHED CARS!!! HELP ME keep the cars out of the crusher! A/C Thread
"as I ride with my a/c on... I have fond memories of sweaty oily saturdays and spewing R12 into the air. THANKS for all you do!

My drivers:
1987 190D 2.5Turbo
1987 190D 2.5Turbo
1987 190D 2.5-5SPEED!!!

1987 300TD
1987 300TD
1994GMC 2500 6.5Turbo truck... I had to put the ladder somewhere!

Good point! F1 cars use flywheels for it too. I love this thread! Its pretty non partisan but there are some political overtones of course.

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[SIGPIC] Diesel loving autocrossing grandpa Architect. 08 Dodge 3/4 ton with Cummins & six speed; I have had about 35 benzes. I have a 39 Studebaker Coupe Express pickup in which I have had installed a 617 turbo and a five speed manual.[SIGPIC]

..I also have a 427 Cobra replica with an aluminum chassis.

Real men can make their rubber smoke, not their fuel.

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Jim