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  #1  
Old 05-03-2017, 09:01 AM
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Battery Jump Pack Sizing?

I've been eyeing some portable battery packs for some time and finally took the plunge and picked up several for our daily drivers and motorcycle. I even picked up on for my office.

Anyway, I'm trying to size one for my W115 with series glow plugs. Although the engine is in the process of being rebuilt, on cold days it used to require about 45 seconds of glowing before it would reliably light off. I suspect that time will diminish substantially with like new compression.

I've read that each glow plug draws about 10 amps when cold but that gradually decreases to 4 amps once up to temperature. Without taking that decrease into account, I'd need something that could provide 500 watts of power for up to a minute and then still be able to light off the engine.

The marketing material across the board will state up to what size engine each model is capable of starting, either petrol or diesel. However, I have found any that takes into account glow plug operations for an extended period of time. Specifically, can it provide that sort of power for extended times without going flat or overheating?

I was intersted in the Noco GB70. Their online chat "specialists" says that it should start my 240 without breaking a sweat. However, I'm not sure they were taking into account glow plugs operating.

This is the model I'm looking at:


https://www.amazon.com/NOCO-GB70-UltraSafe-Lithium-Starter/dp/B016UG6PWE

Doe anyone keep battery packs at the ready for their diesels? Any insight to share?

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  #2  
Old 05-03-2017, 10:22 AM
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I know of a fellow who bought the ~$70 Hazard Fraught lithium jump packs and tried to start his MB diesel with it. It worked fine if helping a weak battery, but when he tried it by itself, the current draw basically melted the poor thing.

That Noco GB70 at almost $200 looks pretty nice, but that price! Ouch!
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  #3  
Old 05-03-2017, 10:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Maxbumpo View Post
I know of a fellow who bought the ~$70 Hazard Fraught lithium jump packs and tried to start his MB diesel with it. It worked fine if helping a weak battery, but when he tried it by itself, the current draw basically melted the poor thing.

That Noco GB70 at almost $200 looks pretty nice, but that price! Ouch!
The price seems to float around some. I've seen them for $20-30 less on Amazon at times.

They still can serve a purpose beyond boosting you car, though. They can be used to recharge phones and laptops, powering inflators, and have built in flashlights and strobes. So they aren't single use devices and can be used for camping or roadside repairs, etc.

NOCO makes a 1000 amp model for $99. I have one of those at the office. Perhaps the thing to do would be to take it home and try it on my 240 after it gets rebuilt. If it glows and starts, then great. I can get by with the smaller unit. But my hunch is that there's not enough reserve capacity in the battery to provide 40-50 amps for that long. They are designed for short bursts of high discharge rates, not sustained draws.
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Last edited by bipolardave; 05-03-2017 at 11:17 AM.
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  #4  
Old 05-03-2017, 11:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bipolardave View Post
I've been eyeing some portable battery packs for some time and finally took the plunge and picked up several for our daily drivers and motorcycle. I even picked up on for my office.

Anyway, I'm trying to size one for my W115 with series glow plugs. Although the engine is in the process of being rebuilt, on cold days it used to require about 45 seconds of glowing before it would reliably light off. I suspect that time will diminish substantially with like new compression.

I've read that each glow plug draws about 10 amps when cold but that gradually decreases to 4 amps once up to temperature. Without taking that decrease into account, I'd need something that could provide 500 watts of power for up to a minute and then still be able to light off the engine.

The marketing material across the board will state up to what size engine each model is capable of starting, either petrol or diesel. However, I have found any that takes into account glow plug operations for an extended period of time. Specifically, can it provide that sort of power for extended times without going flat or overheating?

I was intersted in the Noco GB70. Their online chat "specialists" says that it should start my 240 without breaking a sweat. However, I'm not sure they were taking into account glow plugs operating.

This is the model I'm looking at:


https://www.amazon.com/NOCO-GB70-UltraSafe-Lithium-Starter/dp/B016UG6PWE

Doe anyone keep battery packs at the ready for their diesels? Any insight to share?
If your Glow plugs are the filament/loop type you would benefit from changing them to the adapter pencil types which get a lot hotter faster.

Also those Battery Packs are more of a benefit to gassers because a gasser can still crank OK but if the voltage drops below a certain amount you don't get enough spark to cause ignition.
That means you need voltage more then amperage.
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  #5  
Old 05-03-2017, 11:58 AM
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I would go for anything with Maxwell ultracapacitors inside. 6 D cell size caps can easily start a 3L engine and will recharge in seconds after use and you really can't break unless you exceed max voltage for a long time. They're much more robust than lithium batteries.

Also you can also permanently wire them in parallel with the car battery. Say you left your lights on over night and by morning your battery is flat at 10v and won't start the engine. Unlike the lead acid battery, the capacitors have a linear discharge curve so even at 10v they'll still have enough power to crank the engine all the way down to 7v where your starter solenoid stops clicking.
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  #6  
Old 05-03-2017, 12:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Diesel911 View Post
If your Glow plugs are the filament/loop type you would benefit from changing them to the adapter pencil types which get a lot hotter faster.

Also those Battery Packs are more of a benefit to gassers because a gasser can still crank OK but if the voltage drops below a certain amount you don't get enough spark to cause ignition.
That means you need voltage more then amperage.
Thanks.

I've been aware of the pencil plugs for a while but am keeping the car original.

Besides, it would lose some of the nostalgia by not arm wrestling with the gorilla knob each time I started it.
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  #7  
Old 05-03-2017, 12:30 PM
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Gorilla knob would still 100% work with pencils...
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  #8  
Old 05-03-2017, 12:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vstech View Post
Gorilla knob would still 100% work with pencils...
But I would not longer be wrestling it. It's also still not keeping the car original.

So which battery pack would you recommend?
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  #9  
Old 05-03-2017, 01:34 PM
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Practicality over originality has to enter the picture if you are using the car in cold temperatures as well. A set of conversion pencil plugs can be removed and the old system installed again at any time easily.

To much energy is dissipated on those external resistance linking wires. Also if you maintain the car the need for a booster pack should be almost never.

These diesels starters draw heavily because of the increased compression. So there will be issues with getting good current flow from the pack if the cars battery is really low. Usually the transfer connections tend to be current limiting.

For example a set of booster cables on mine may not transfer enough current to start the car. If the battery in place is too low. A gas engine seldom to never is an issue in comparison.
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  #10  
Old 05-03-2017, 02:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by barry12345 View Post
Practicality over originality has to enter the picture if you are using the car in cold temperatures as well. A set of conversion pencil plugs can be removed and the old system installed again at any time easily.

To much energy is dissipated on those external resistance linking wires. Also if you maintain the car the need for a booster pack should be almost never.

These diesels starters draw heavily because of the increased compression. So there will be issues with getting good current flow from the pack if the cars battery is really low. Usually the transfer connections tend to be current limiting.

For example a set of booster cables on mine may not transfer enough current to start the car. If the battery in place is too low. A gas engine seldom to never is an issue in comparison.
I once had a voltmeter placed at the starter motor while my wife tried to start the car. The voltage would drop from 12.5V to, if memory serves, about 11.5V with the glow plugs lit. So there, is, indeed, quite a draw. My estimate is about an initial 500 watts worth.

Anyway, I think that I have an answer to my original question.

I spoke with Micogravity about the XP10. According to their customer service (who asked their level 2 person), it will provide 50 amps of current @12V for about 1 minute before going flat.

A fresh rebuild with new glow plugs should result in much quicker start times than the worst case scenario I would see previously. One minute, then, should be plenty.

A nice bonus is that the Microgravity unit comes in at $30 less than the Noco booster I linked to above.
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  #11  
Old 05-03-2017, 05:20 PM
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I would think the starter is a much higher current draw than the glow plugs. Just compare the wire gages. Probably pushing the small lithium packs on our diesels, given the massive starter. But, if your engine starts after just 1-2 sec of cranking it may work. Regardless of battery pack, if you are relying on it solely, there can easily be too much resistance in the alligator clamps to allow starting directly off the pack. That is why they are better for recharging your car's battery a bit first, which is why you usually have to wait a minute before trying, and don't get jiggy and jump the gun or you will just keep running down the pack. You can find youtube's of guys starting V-8 engines off a home-made rig of super-capacitors alone, but they don't quantify the stored A-hr vs a lead-acid battery. When lucky, even a little motorcycle battery might start your diesel, but not worth the risk of a tow truck call.
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  #12  
Old 05-03-2017, 09:08 PM
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For home use I'd get a regular lead acid car battery a pair of battery terminal repair ends, some 2 gauge welding cable ( very flexible ) and copper contact clamps.

For portable use, a sealed lead acid / absorbed gas matt / gel cell battery. A 20 AH one will start a 4 cylinder Formula Ford engine even when using the awful Lucas inertia starter. Premade jumper packs cheap out on the battery to give you an air compressor , lights and other stuff so put your $ towards a good battery.

At work we use BB Battery brand by the hundreds, we bake , freeze, overcharge random samples and they hold up very well.

If you really want to get tricky, use an Anderson SB50 type forklift battery connector on the car and jump battery. This way you don't have to clamp / wiggle the connections and the plugs are shaped such that they can't be put on backwards. The 50 amp rated one is plenty as they are rated for continuous current but be sure to get the ones for 6 gauge or larger wire ( smaller number = larger wire. ) .
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  #13  
Old 05-04-2017, 02:13 AM
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Can someone tell me swapping in a Turbo Diesel Starter would improve his cranking?
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  #14  
Old 05-04-2017, 02:19 AM
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+1 for ultracapacitors, my pack would start a (smaller) locomotive if configured right

+infinity for converting to pencil plugs, keeping series plugs when they were made redundant 30+ years ago is borderline crazy, and besides you will still have the same "glow experience" except it will be shorter! You don't change/ add a relay
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  #15  
Old 05-04-2017, 02:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bipolardave View Post
Thanks.

I've been aware of the pencil plugs for a while but am keeping the car original.

Besides, it would lose some of the nostalgia by not arm wrestling with the gorilla knob each time I started it.
OK.

When I post stuff I try to keep in mind that at some point in time someone else might be reading the threads. Other people might like to know their options.

I choose not to have a cell phone and in fact have trouble using one when someone hands one to me.
But, that caught up with me. My Car died and I needed to call for a Tow. I found out that all of the Pay Phones that used to be in the general area were gone. A near by Library let me use their Phone.

I don't want one but at some point in time I going to have to face up to it and get a Cell Phone because it is impractical not to have one.

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