That's why I like hanging out here! There are quite a few people here that really know what's going on... Personally, I've learned a great deal in the relatively short time I've been here!

-Joe

The pictures will help alot of people I'm sure.
The ones in the Haynes aren't bad but their quality won't be anything like those you plan to publish here I'm sure.

You said

" 1) More than a couple of my valves were loose rather than tight. Seemed kind of strange to me...

From what Jim Sith explained earlier in this thread that sounds odd unless perhaps it has to do with the springs getting old.

And

" 2) It does not take much turning on the bottom nut to tighten/lossen the valve. Very easy to over do it and have to adjust multiple times. I am sure it gets easier as you gain experience with it.

Ditto ! . . I found it a royal pain.
And I know that somehow the spring retainer has something to do with that but once again the Haynes pictures and diagrams weren't clear enough.
We'll fix that . . right ?
What would probably be really useful would be a picture of the whole thing exploded so one could see what relationship the spring retainer bears to the two nuts above it.

Dreaming I guess .

Thanks for all the support here.
You've taken on what must be a huge task of keeping all this madness coherent and friendly.
Congrats.

Jim

The pictures will help alot of people I'm sure.
The ones in the Haynes aren't bad but their quality won't be anything like those you plan to publish here I'm sure.

You said

" 1) More than a couple of my valves were loose rather than tight. Seemed kind of strange to me...

From what Jim Sith explained earlier in this thread that sounds odd unless perhaps it has to do with the springs getting old.

And

" 2) It does not take much turning on the bottom nut to tighten/lossen the valve. Very easy to over do it and have to adjust multiple times. I am sure it gets easier as you gain experience with it.

Ditto ! . . I found it a royal pain.
And I know that somehow the spring retainer has something to do with that but once again the Haynes pictures and diagrams weren't clear enough.
We'll fix that . . right ?
What would probably be really useful would be a picture of the whole thing exploded so one could see what relationship the spring retainer bears to the two nuts above it.

Dreaming I guess .

Thanks for all the support here.
You've taken on what must be a huge task of keeping all this madness coherent and friendly.
Congrats.

Jim

If it were just a spring retainer it would be different.. but this one fits over two flats on the sides of the valve top ... and thus holding it allows you to secure the valve while turning the two nuts... the lock nut the the cap nut .... If you don't use that tool then I think an extra pair of hands would be helpful... it allows one person to adjust the nuts even if they are contrary... I had three I could not adjust until I went and bought that lower wrench.... Greg

Anon-E-Mouse and TXBill,

When you consider the precision operation adjusting valves is, and who did the last one, you find an explanation for the loose valve phenomena.

Most of us use feeler gages, and most of us will set them a little closer to the loose end of the tolerance than the low end, knowing the engine running tends to make the gap close. All of us are more or less particular about how we do this job, and we all have different standards for the correct feel of a feeler gage when measuring a gap. The valve train also rotates the valve slightly with each operation to even out the wear on the seat and the gap grows as the engine gets warmer.

Taking all this into account, and the fact that I always do my valves myself, and with the engine closer to the 20 degree C (78 F) spec than the 60 degrees C (plus or minus 15 degrees C) or 113 to 167 degrees F, but sometimes closer to 95 or so if that is the ambient temp in the summer, the valve lash has always gotten smaller over time. The gap correction for temperature is a smooth curve correction, not some kind of quantuum physics event where the gap gets larger by 50% on the intakes and 14% on the exhausts as the engine goes from 112 degrees F to 113 degrees F. I typically account for the gap change in my head, but do all valves the same. I also rotate the engine enough to get every valve in at least two or three positions to check that I did the job correctly and there are no peculiar spots on the seats. Mostly I do it to make sure I was consistent with the feeler gages. And I change the gaps as necessary to get them to high end of the tolerance even if they are within the tolerance band.

I have the MB tools from the early 70's and find the process kind of tedious, and like TXBill, my back figures there are better things to do in life. But my back doesn't get to make many decisions unless it is really in bad shape, so I do the job regularly for my car and my Father-in-law's car. Checking is another 15 minutes after spending twice that getting access to the valves and an hour cleaning all the stuff before putting it back together. Worth the time and back strain to know it is correct.

So, the point is, there are very few ways to have the gap grow in the engine (leaking valve seals can build up carbon on the exterior side of the valve poppet, which can interfere with valve seating, but that is usually accompanied by hard starting and other symptoms of poor compression/oil consumption, or the rocker arm surface can get scored by poor lubrication, but that would likely affect all the valves and the camshaft lobes). But there are many ways the gap can be getting smaller.

An apparent growth of the gap dimension, if verified by having the same individual to the job and recording measurements for a few adjustments in a row, is a sign of something odd, possibly not good, going on. But based on the data taken during a single adjustment covering the valve adjustment practices of two mechanics setting them (one apparently unknown), including temperature when the valves were set, the feel of the mechanics for using a feeler gage, whether or not they are set high, and all set the same each time, and so on leaves plenty of room for the situation to be normal.

I hope this helps. And I hope I read the post I am responding to correctly. Jim

__________________
Own:
1986 Euro 190E 2.3-16 (291,000 miles),
1998 E300D TurboDiesel, 231,000 miles -purchased with 45,000,
1988 300E 5-speed 252,000 miles,
1983 240D 4-speed, purchased w/136,000, now with 222,000 miles.
2009 ML320CDI Bluetec, 89,000 miles

Owned:
1971 220D (250,000 miles plus, sold to father-in-law),
1975 240D (245,000 miles - died of body rot),
1991 350SD (176,560 miles, weakest Benz I have owned),
1999 C230 Sport (45,400 miles),
1982 240D (321,000 miles, put to sleep)

Just reread my previous post and discovered a typo. I meant Jim Smith, not Jim Sith. ;->

And your last explanation is very clear. It does raise a couple more questions for me. "A little knowledge is a dangerous thing"

Is it Ok if the springs rotate while adjusting and do the small yellow paint marks I saw on many (but not all) of the Springs have to face the same way ?

And

For curiosities sake; how many degrees do you suppose the valves rotate per engine revolution and is this dependant upon the rpms ?

And

I've driven four times at high speed on the highway since the adjustment and now it is starting to smoke a bit more than immediately after the job was finished.

Assuming it had been a long time since the previous owner's adjustment and assuming there was a lot of carbon on the valves which I probably burnt off as I careened down the highway; do you think it likely that if I checked again today I would find that the clearances had shrunk somewhat from having blasted the carbon off during my runs ? Maybe even from .1mm to .06mm for example ?
I'm imagining that this is possible and that in the process of restoring an engine to it's uncarboned potential it might be necessary to adjust the valves two or three times over a 2000 mile period for maximum effect.

Waddaya think?

BTW thanks especially for the description of the correct gap to be seen as a straight line graph vis a vis temperature. I had kind of wondered about that.

jim.

Hey Bill,
Thanks !

You said
"Turn the whole valve by hand and check the clearance at a few different places."

By turning the spring, I am turning the valve, correct ?

jim

BTW
to respond on another thread I found . . .

This Link to the Hazet tool for adjusting valves

and here it is again 'cause a picture's worth a thousand words

Anon-E-Mouse,

I have no idea how many degrees of rotation the valve gets for every actuation, but I guess next adjustment I could try to figure it out by marking one of the valves and counting how many rotations of the shaft get 45 or 90 degrees of rotation.

If you turn the valve, the nuts on the top you are trying to adjust the gap with will turn too, unless they are loose and you are holding them with the wrenches. If you turn the spring retainer the valve will turn and the spring probably will as well.

If your valves have not been adjusted for some time, and you suspect there was a carbon build up problem there when you made the adjustment, go ahead and check the clearances again. It is a low risk sequence of events, and once your hands have healed from the scrubbing you have to give them to be allowed to approach the dinner table it only takes a few days to figure it is time to do something on the car again anyway. The exhaust valves will likely see the greatest benefit of the blasts to highway speeds and above, but it is possible some sustained high load driving can benefit the intake valves as well.

Good luck, Jim

__________________
Own:
1986 Euro 190E 2.3-16 (291,000 miles),
1998 E300D TurboDiesel, 231,000 miles -purchased with 45,000,
1988 300E 5-speed 252,000 miles,
1983 240D 4-speed, purchased w/136,000, now with 222,000 miles.
2009 ML320CDI Bluetec, 89,000 miles

Owned:
1971 220D (250,000 miles plus, sold to father-in-law),
1975 240D (245,000 miles - died of body rot),
1991 350SD (176,560 miles, weakest Benz I have owned),
1999 C230 Sport (45,400 miles),
1982 240D (321,000 miles, put to sleep)

I've got a box of good vinyl gloves but I invariably find a way to not have them on at exctly the wrong time.
Had a boss once who came to work everyday dressed in clean whites and did the same job as I but went home clean. Some of us got it, some of us don't.
So yeah, time to go out and get dirty again.
This time will be a cinch.
I'm going to bend another wrench and see how close I get to the Hazet ones now that I've seen the pictures. Maybe I can go into business bending wrenches and selling them to shade tree guys that don't want to pay $95. for them.
Right ! another brilliant money making idea . . . Not.

While I'm in there, I guess it's easy to check the tension on the timing chain ?

Jim

He does NOT need a new cam, rocker arms, OR towers.

this raymond guy , force.. all he does is suggest you buy new things

I know. Have you browsed his post history? 98% is suggesting you buy something.

I just don't want somebody to blow $617 on stuff they DON'T need.

Ahh......Lance.......the thread is over 4 years old.........Raymond must have nothing better to do...........

true..

Oh, 2002. Dang, that's old...

What a waste of time.