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  #16  
Old 06-11-2017, 10:59 AM
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I think their paint is far better than to just protect the metal. They have a very nice high solids clear coat, I'd put up against any big brand clear.

It's not so much where urethane falls, it's each brand of paint, what's their chemistry and philosophy on leaning toward maximizing chip resistance or scratch resistance. VW through the 90's went through a phase where the paint was like glass, it'd chip so easy, but was nearly impossible to scratch. That was a result of customer complaints about the fingernail scratches the door latch pockets used to suffer in the late 80's. Typical VW fashion they went to the other extreme.

Medium wet, light wet, heavy wet, all to describe how much paint you're laying down. The wetter you get the more you risk sags and runs. Some guys even lay down a semi dry mist coat as the first coat of clear for adhesion purposes. And with metallic and pearls sometimes the last coat of color is a light fog to get the the metal flake to "stand up" on the surface.

Only advantage of spraying on wet primer is time. It is not done often, and can cause problems like solvent pop, especially if you do epoxy, then primer, then base coat, then mid coat, then clear coat...it can be too many layers, and the solvents can get trapped, eventually they can pop through like a tiny volcano.

Rattle can paint is usually a 1K product, there are some that are 2K where you pop a valve on the can which injects a catalyst in the paint just before you spray it, but it's dang expensive. 1K's in general won't last that long, especially clear coat where you need UV protection, and anti-yellowing protection.

I'm not fully up on the electric motor HP scam, but it was prevalent for a while. The problem, as I understand it is that HP isn't a great way to express power from an electric motor, and torque is really what's important anyways. Some of them were rated as the maximum output if connected to 230 voltage for example, so on 110 they were much less. My understanding is that it's impossible to be more than 2 HP on 110 voltage, unless you really up the amperage of the motor, but then that alone pushes you to 230 volt as well (again from what I understand, electricity is a mystery to me). Most of them are around 15 amps.

No valves needed, HF has a union with 3 quick connects on it that attaches to a a 1/2" line. I just adjust the output regulator on each compressor to not exceed the maximum PSI rating of the piggy back tank. It does mean plumbing a line though, which you need anyways to get filters downstream far enough from the compressor to be effective.

When it comes to spray guns, cheap and inexpensive are synonymous. You really do get what you pay for. From R&D, design, quality of machining, air management, etc. Now, that doesn't mean you need a top of the line SATA or Devilbiss or Iwata, but a mid-range one, you will really appreciate, especially as a novice. Buy, a decent one, and then resell it, once you're done with all your painting, rather than buy a cheap one. You'll be glad you did.

Some of the Devilbiss guns are L.P.L.V. also, it really depends on the aircap. The 7E7 and the TE20 caps are considered best for home compressor setups, since they are a bit more efficient. It's not really an either or with the air compressor capability and gun it's a yes to both. Sorry, but that's a lesson already learned, have have several cheap guns in my tool draws to prove it. Though one of them is a pretty good gun, I'd let go now that I have the Protek copper. It's a Graco-Sharpe FX3000 with a 1.4 needle, it has been a great gun if you'd be interested.
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  #17  
Old 06-12-2017, 02:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crazy4diesel View Post
I think their paint is far better than to just protect the metal. They have a very nice high solids clear coat, I'd put up against any big brand clear.
Just going by the information provided.

Quote:
Originally Posted by crazy4diesel View Post
It's not so much where urethane falls, it's each brand of paint, what's their chemistry and philosophy on leaning toward maximizing chip resistance or scratch resistance. VW through the 90's went through a phase where the paint was like glass, it'd chip so easy, but was nearly impossible to scratch. That was a result of customer complaints about the fingernail scratches the door latch pockets used to suffer in the late 80's. Typical VW fashion they went to the other extreme.
Okay, so then guess one has to figure out that, as doubt the manufacture make it well known.

Volkswagen is an interesting manufacturer; didn't think of them as swinging between extremes. Now think of it, don't think the aircooled era paint scratched too bad, but then the door handle recesses do get a bit scratched up.

Quote:
Originally Posted by crazy4diesel View Post
Medium wet, light wet, heavy wet, all to describe how much paint you're laying down. The wetter you get the more you risk sags and runs. Some guys even lay down a semi dry mist coat as the first coat of clear for adhesion purposes. And with metallic and pearls sometimes the last coat of color is a light fog to get the the metal flake to "stand up" on the surface.
Good to know.

Last time did the paint, found that going full tilt, meaning wet, get runs. By the second aerosol paint job, had it down. Have had two concussions since then, but think some come back and get the hang. Plus, the individual painter, every brand of paint, and the equipment makes it all different. Now think about it, the junk fender be ideal for sanding down, then shot with what going to next to adjust the setting, shoot on the vehical, then repeat.

Quote:
Originally Posted by crazy4diesel View Post
Only advantage of spraying on wet primer is time. It is not done often, and can cause problems like solvent pop, especially if you do epoxy, then primer, then base coat, then mid coat, then clear coat...it can be too many layers, and the solvents can get trapped, eventually they can pop through like a tiny volcano.
Oh dear! No way. Thankfully just curios, though now know about solvent volcanos.

Quote:
Originally Posted by crazy4diesel View Post
I'm not fully up on the electric motor HP scam, but it was prevalent for a while. The problem, as I understand it is that HP isn't a great way to express power from an electric motor, and torque is really what's important anyways. Some of them were rated as the maximum output if connected to 230 voltage for example, so on 110 they were much less. My understanding is that it's impossible to be more than 2 HP on 110 voltage, unless you really up the amperage of the motor, but then that alone pushes you to 230 volt as well (again from what I understand, electricity is a mystery to me). Most of them are around 15 amps.
So is there a rough time when it became more honest? Meaning, if a '90s compressor, know that the ratings are more likely to be accurate?

Quote:
Originally Posted by crazy4diesel View Post
No valves needed, HF has a union with 3 quick connects on it that attaches to a a 1/2" line. I just adjust the output regulator on each compressor to not exceed the maximum PSI rating of the piggy back tank. It does mean plumbing a line though, which you need anyways to get filters downstream far enough from the compressor to be effective.
Could you help me with my leaking regulator, or should it just be replaced?

If replaced, can a generic be put on?

How much line needed for dropout? Have to remember, this is a one compact car garage.

Quote:
Originally Posted by crazy4diesel View Post
When it comes to spray guns, cheap and inexpensive are synonymous. You really do get what you pay for. From R&D, design, quality of machining, air management, etc. Now, that doesn't mean you need a top of the line SATA or Devilbiss or Iwata, but a mid-range one, you will really appreciate, especially as a novice. Buy, a decent one, and then resell it, once you're done with all your painting, rather than buy a cheap one. You'll be glad you did.
Not really wanting to spend $300 on a gun and $800 on air...

What do you define as midrange? How about the FX3000, or is that just a cheap gun?

Plan to keep the gun for the rest of my life. Heck, if get good enough, maybe paint Jed's pride and joy '68 Galaxy 500XL 428c.i..

Quote:
Originally Posted by crazy4diesel View Post
Some of the Devilbiss guns are L.P.L.V. also, it really depends on the aircap. The 7E7 and the TE20 caps are considered best for home compressor setups, since they are a bit more efficient. It's not really an either or with the air compressor capability and gun it's a yes to both. Sorry, but that's a lesson already learned, have have several cheap guns in my tool draws to prove it. Though one of them is a pretty good gun, I'd let go now that I have the Protek copper. It's a Graco-Sharpe FX3000 with a 1.4 needle, it has been a great gun if you'd be interested.
As someone that is a D.Y.I. painter, just uneasy spending thousands. Reason rather go more towards air as has more uses than a gun that just paints.

Sharpe FX3000 has good reviews and a 9.8C.F.M. at 40P.S.I..
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Current fleet:

1985 Mercedes-Benz 280TE - Current project and hopefully by mid May daily driver.

1985 Mercedes-Benz 300TDT - Rear ended 23 September 2016.

1979 Mercedes-Benz 300TD - Parted out.

1971 Volkswagen Sunroof Squareback with F.I. - in need of full restoration.

1971 Volkswagen Squareback automatic with F.I. - Waiting on logistics to get to Texas.
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  #18  
Old 06-12-2017, 03:13 PM
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Yeah, one thing you have to do is forget everything you ever knew about aerosol painting. Air guns lay the stuff down, and FAST. Even going from one gun to the next is a pretty decent learning curve.

The compressor companies didn't get "honest" until recently, and even then, it's best to take most of the claims with a grain of salt. Just do the best you can with what you have, sounds like you'll be ok, once you get that regulator sorted out, you might want two of those piggy back tanks though.

I'm not too sure on the regulator, why I say that is because my Craftsman has the pressure switch integrated in the regulator, so I'd be reluctant to mess with a generic replacement. What do you mean it's leaking? I'd need to know more.

You really want to get away from your compressor with at least 30 feet of something that will cool down the air, and allow the condensate to be separated. If space is an issue you can make a manifold using cheap black pipe and elbows, just go back and forth and attach it to the wall, put a petcock to drain it at the bottom, then go back up a foot or so from that drain with another elbow, and then attach your coalescing oil filter, particle filter, and finally desiccant dryer. Keep in mind everything you attach reduces flow, so keep your fittings as large as possible, half inch should be fine though.

Since you're just starting out get nothing but "v" type high flow connectors, they make as massive difference from the standard IM connectors. I'm slowly switching over.

The Finex isn't a cheap gun, I have one I've used about three times, I'd let go for someone starting out. I'll just keep it if not. The one I have is the FX3000, with the 1.4 needle. It's a great gun, and yes it's pretty efficient with air usage.

I just shot the epoxy primer with the Astro 1.9 gun, and it does spray very well, BUT damn if it doesn't consume air like there is no tomorrow! Even my dual compressor setup struggled with it. I'll probably keep it though, because I don't have anything with a larger needle than 1.4, which tends to shoot primer way too dry.

I shot the epoxy primer on the door jambs of my project car last night, this morning I shot the color coat, and this afternoon I'll be shooting the clear coat. I'll post pictures to update my project car thread, (which it seems everyone has lost interest in, can't blame them, I took a break for more than a year from the project, life intervened).
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  #19  
Old 06-13-2017, 12:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crazy4diesel View Post
The compressor companies didn't get "honest" until recently, and even then, it's best to take most of the claims with a grain of salt. Just do the best you can with what you have, sounds like you'll be ok, once you get that regulator sorted out, you might want two of those piggy back tanks though.
Okay, so then have to probably go with best guess if 110, seems 220 is a bit more honest. Never know what deal might come up, but right now can't look as don't have a vehical.

Quote:
Originally Posted by crazy4diesel View Post
I'm not too sure on the regulator, why I say that is because my Craftsman has the pressure switch integrated in the regulator, so I'd be reluctant to mess with a generic replacement. What do you mean it's leaking? I'd need to know more.
Doesn't build pressure, needle stays at zero, running the whole time, and have air leaking out from inside the black box, which is attached to the manifold. Would get a picture, but iPhone hasn't had a working camera (not sure why and without transportation, S.O.L..) and the 2010 Kodak finally quit. Spent an hour messing around, but no progress. In short, stuck with words.

Quote:
Originally Posted by crazy4diesel View Post
You really want to get away from your compressor with at least 30 feet of something that will cool down the air, and allow the condensate to be separated. If space is an issue you can make a manifold using cheap black pipe and elbows, just go back and forth and attach it to the wall, put a petcock to drain it at the bottom, then go back up a foot or so from that drain with another elbow, and then attach your coalescing oil filter, particle filter, and finally desiccant dryer. Keep in mind everything you attach reduces flow, so keep your fittings as large as possible, half inch should be fine though.
30 feet is a lot of pipe and a lot of connections if doing a manifold. Limited on wall space also and don't have the ability to hang things overhead. So, what happens if don't have 30 feet?

Other thought is put it outside so when comes into the cooler garage, helps create condensation?

That also have the affect getting the noise pollution outside, though not sure how the compressor like the hot air outside.

My understanding is you said only need a water filter and now here is more parts. So far, looking like close to $2,000 just in tools.

Further, since an oil free compressor, curious why need an oil filter?

Quote:
Originally Posted by crazy4diesel View Post
Since you're just starting out get nothing but "v" type high flow connectors, they make as massive difference from the standard IM connectors. I'm slowly switching over.
Good to know, especially when the system is so minimal.

Quote:
Originally Posted by crazy4diesel View Post
The Finex isn't a cheap gun, I have one I've used about three times, I'd let go for someone starting out. I'll just keep it if not. The one I have is the FX3000, with the 1.4 needle. It's a great gun, and yes it's pretty efficient with air usage.
Okay, just checking since now offered it twice.

Quote:
Originally Posted by crazy4diesel View Post
I just shot the epoxy primer with the Astro 1.9 gun, and it does spray very well, BUT damn if it doesn't consume air like there is no tomorrow! Even my dual compressor setup struggled with it. I'll probably keep it though, because I don't have anything with a larger needle than 1.4, which tends to shoot primer way too dry.
Why can't you put a different size into the 1,4 gun?

Quote:
Originally Posted by crazy4diesel View Post
I shot the epoxy primer on the door jambs of my project car last night, this morning I shot the color coat, and this afternoon I'll be shooting the clear coat. I'll post pictures to update my project car thread, (which it seems everyone has lost interest in, can't blame them, I took a break for more than a year from the project, life intervened).
Good to read making progress! Here thought a four month hiatus was a lot, though seems now will be years before can finish. Look forward to the build thread.
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Current fleet:

1985 Mercedes-Benz 280TE - Current project and hopefully by mid May daily driver.

1985 Mercedes-Benz 300TDT - Rear ended 23 September 2016.

1979 Mercedes-Benz 300TD - Parted out.

1971 Volkswagen Sunroof Squareback with F.I. - in need of full restoration.

1971 Volkswagen Squareback automatic with F.I. - Waiting on logistics to get to Texas.
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  #20  
Old 06-13-2017, 02:56 PM
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There is no getting around needing adequate volumes of dry clean air to spray paint. Resources are necessary for any endeavor. I can tell you I do NOT have $2K in my system though.

If the compressor is oil free then oil isn't a big problem. But, the filter I'm talking about is $15 at HF, so cheap insurance anyways.

It's the heat generated from compression that is the issue, you have to cool it down a lot so it will drop out as water. I'm just explaining what I have learned, there are many ways to do it, HF even has a refrigerated compressor for drying the air, it costs around $400. I've even seen guys use AC condensers to do the job, but I'd shy away from that due to the small passages, it will slow the flow down too much.

Didn't think you understood where I was coming from, certainly didn't intend to "offer" twice. I wasn't planning to sell the gun at all, I'm sure you can find one on eBay. Also, Amazon has them new for about $140.

You can buy needles and nozzles, but they cost around $80.
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  #21  
Old 06-13-2017, 03:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crazy4diesel View Post
There is no getting around needing adequate volumes of dry clean air to spray paint. Resources are necessary for any endeavor. I can tell you I do NOT have $2K in my system though.
Das stimmt.

Good to know. This is what had in my head based on understanding:
Air compressor - $500
Lines - $250
Guns - $750 (1,4 base/clear and 1,8 primer)

However, like it to be:
Air compressor - $250 for at least a 40 gallon
Lines - $100?
Gun(s) - No more than $150
So as not over the $500 mark.

Quote:
Originally Posted by crazy4diesel View Post
If the compressor is oil free then oil isn't a big problem. But, the filter I'm talking about is $15 at HF, so cheap insurance anyways.
H.F. huh? Actually have some items, one that was recommended was their torque wrenches. WAY better than the beam type, especially Craftsman made in U.S.A. (now that made in China, bet far worse). But, some H.F. isn't anywhere useable, example is their ratchets (bought for part pulling in yards).

Quote:
Originally Posted by crazy4diesel View Post
It's the heat generated from compression that is the issue, you have to cool it down a lot so it will drop out as water. I'm just explaining what I have learned, there are many ways to do it, HF even has a refrigerated compressor for drying the air, it costs around $400. I've even seen guys use AC condensers to do the job, but I'd shy away from that due to the small passages, it will slow the flow down too much.
Ah, now that makes sense! Duh... The air is getting compressed, raising the temperature. Thermodynamics 101 and H.V.A.C. 101 (had one semester of H.V.A.C.).

What if used flexible hose to create the manifold?

Quote:
Originally Posted by crazy4diesel View Post
Didn't think you understood where I was coming from, certainly didn't intend to "offer" twice. I wasn't planning to sell the gun at all, I'm sure you can find one on eBay. Also, Amazon has them new for about $140.
I sent you a P.M. in regards to this misunderstanding. Am certainly interested.

Quote:
Originally Posted by crazy4diesel View Post
You can buy needles and nozzles, but they cost around $80.
To me, some benefit, though have a point that be better to have a primer gun and a base/clear gun. But, starting out, think will stick with just one.
__________________
Current fleet:

1985 Mercedes-Benz 280TE - Current project and hopefully by mid May daily driver.

1985 Mercedes-Benz 300TDT - Rear ended 23 September 2016.

1979 Mercedes-Benz 300TD - Parted out.

1971 Volkswagen Sunroof Squareback with F.I. - in need of full restoration.

1971 Volkswagen Squareback automatic with F.I. - Waiting on logistics to get to Texas.
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