Ok, here it goes. I got a rebuilt starter from my local parts store. Cost me $180. That's ok. I don't mind paying for it if it lasts. I got the car on stands in my driveway and started removing bolts. You guys know where this i heading, don't you. Well, when I got to the top bolt, there was no way in hell that it was going to move. Now, I'm not a little guy. I go to the gym regularly and am in good shape. I broke my creeper with because I was turning the wrench so hard. I tried the 3 ft. extension. No luck. tried a breaker bar, no luck. What i am doing now is using a 10mm wrench with a 10mm allen and turning it, well trying, from the bottom of the car. What are your suggestions for this situation. I am about to start taring the whole car apart and going to use my impact gun. What kinds of penitrating oils work the best? The hasn't been the best project so far.

Roadracer,

I cannot tell what you are actually using for tools. I use a 10 mm hex bit in a socket like holder with a half inch drive. I then use a half inch drive ratchet. The hex bits are available at Sears for a couple of bucks. I have yet to meet with one of these that I cannot break loose and remove. I have used extensions on some of the fasteners to clear knuckle scraping obstacles. Hope this helps, Jim

__________________
Own:
1986 Euro 190E 2.3-16 (291,000 miles),
1998 E300D TurboDiesel, 231,000 miles -purchased with 45,000,
1988 300E 5-speed 252,000 miles,
1983 240D 4-speed, purchased w/136,000, now with 222,000 miles.
2009 ML320CDI Bluetec, 89,000 miles

Owned:
1971 220D (250,000 miles plus, sold to father-in-law),
1975 240D (245,000 miles - died of body rot),
1991 350SD (176,560 miles, weakest Benz I have owned),
1999 C230 Sport (45,400 miles),
1982 240D (321,000 miles, put to sleep)

I'm using the same thing. I have a long extension with a u-joint at the allen socket. I even slipped a section of pipe over the handle of the ratchet for more leverage. This is how I ended up breaking my creeper. What really bugs me is that if these bolts were just standard hex bolts. I would have plenty of access to remove them with a wrench or a socket. I think that once I do remove them, I will go to the hardware store and buy some new bolts with a hex head for ease of installation and removal. God forbid that I have to go through this again.

Whatever fasteners you decide to put in there the operative word is ANTISEEZE COMPOUND , I guess that is two words....

Well, it's done. I ended up laying on the ground, since my creeper is toast, using a 3ft.extension, with my half inch drive ratchet and a 2ft pipe over the handle. Results, loose bolt and crushed fingers. The only thing that I can see is that those washers that are used, the wavey ones, pack a lot of force. Once loose enough, the bolts come right out. Does anyone know what they are called? I have never had so much force go into removing a bolt in any one of my cars. That includes cylinder head bolts, driveshaft bolts, or anything else. The one thing that I can say is that I'm very impressed with those rings. Oh ya, in order to slide it out, all I had to do was remove one bolt from the steering dampener. once out of the way, it slid right out. Anyway, now on to bigger better things. Like water pumps and half shafts. I'm having way too much fun.

Glad to read you were successful, I've seen this nightmare - no fun.

The spring washers are a type of lock washer, not as good as the split lock washer or the type with the series of small fingers with serrations, but they work.

The top bolt is probably as tight as it is because either the starter has never been removed and the steel bolts have partially welded/corroded themselves to the either alum. or cheap metal the starter housing is made of, or the starter has been removed and the car was up on a lift where the tech could apply full force and leverage to really grunt on that bolt to make sure it never comes out, or the starter was replaced and the threads were not cleaned with a tap and the tech really torqued the bolt while standing on the floor with the car on a lift, or the everything was in good condition and the threads we're oiled/greased and then over-torqued by a tech standing on the floor with the car up on a lift.

When laying on the ground you have far less ability to apply force to this or any other bolt. I've used my legs, a small hydraulic bottle jack, torch for lots of heat, even used a breaker bar jammed into the ground and lowered the car to break some really tight bolts/nuts - in other words, use your imagination and whatever it takes to get those suckers loose! I wear brown cotton garden gloves to help with getting a good grip - and gloves also keep busted nuckles/cuts to a minimum and my hands stay much cleaner.

As mentioned, it is a very good idea to run a tap through the threads on the replacement starter - clean threads make a big difference in easily threading the bolts into the starter.

Leathermang has a very good suggestion, use Anti Seize compound if you have it or high temp grease if you do not.

Using hex head bolts is another good suggestion. On the adapter plate these are the only Allen-head bolts, all the others holding the engine and trans together are hex head - go figure.

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America: Land of the Free!

1977 300D: 300,000+ miles

American Honda: Factory Trained Technician & Honor Grad.
Formerly:
Shop Foreman;
Technical Advisor to Am. Honda;
Supervisor of Maintenance largest tree care co. in US for offices in Tex.