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  #16  
Old 01-08-2018, 10:12 PM
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There's nothing wrong with your valve cap and lock nuts. What went wrong was the knucklehead who did the valve adjustment left them all loose and that was the start of your problems, IMO.

Have you changed to synthetic oil yet? It has much better cleaning power than dino oil. I'd suggest doing the synthetic and not that Liqui Moly oil saver.

I don't think low compression (300 psi) on one cylinder is cause of the stalling when cold.

Edit: If you are running 15W 40 dino oil, it is thick like honey at last week's cold temps and is a likely the cause of the engine stalling from a cold start.
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  #17  
Old 01-08-2018, 11:35 PM
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right,

i haven't changed oil yet. i was going back and forth on switching to synthetic, it wouldn't affect the compression right?
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1985 w123 300D turbo
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  #18  
Old 01-09-2018, 10:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by allenying View Post
hi, my engine is running rough, with intermittent kicks, and smoking, seems like oil burning.

valves have been adjust a couple times.
rack damper idle adjuster spring bolt has been changed and adjusted.
a few cans of diesel purge have been run, as well as startron.
each gave a small improvement but not complete fix.
there is injector knocking coming from 1st valve, 1st 2 injectors have been been tested for pressure and spray pattern.

compression tests and leak down tests have been done. it seems that there is a leak in the 1st valve, and the compression is lower on it than the other 4 valves.

basically it seems like most things have been ruled out, and the next step is a valve job.


has anyone paid a shop to do this? if so, how much?
i'm going to get a couple estimates, from my shop, and one that comes highly recommended, but i want to be able to gauge if they're over quoting.

also i'm a little worried that i'll end up spending the money on it and for whatever reason it wasn't the problem. based on the info i've given, would anyone have doubts?

thanks in advance,
"basically it seems like most things have been ruled out, and the next step is a valve job."

I'd suggest hold off on the valve job for now as I think your engine has more than just issues with burned valves.

Still unexplained is when I did the first valve adjustment (when I found all lock nuts were loose, many valves had very little clearance, #1 exh. worst where 0.001 feeler would not go in), the engine ran fine for about 4 days w/o any of the symptoms you are complaining about.

Does your mechanic who wanted to replace the IP know that you ran bio-diesel year round? I wonder if his diagnosis is based on the bio-diesel.
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  #19  
Old 01-09-2018, 10:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by allenying View Post
right,

i haven't changed oil yet. i was going back and forth on switching to synthetic, it wouldn't affect the compression right?
with winter weather, I'd suggest changing to full synthetic 5W40 right away. You'll get easier starts and may cure the stalling problem. It may also help clean up any sludge with miles driven and may help with compression if there is sludge in the ring lands.

Walmart usually have the cheapest price unless you find a sale somewhere. You'll need 7 quarts. Do you do your own oil change? It's not difficult or messy if you're careful and work cleanly. I have a home made vacuum sucker that works with a 12V vac pump that makes changing oil a breeze and won't spill a drop.
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  #20  
Old 01-09-2018, 10:22 PM
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hmm, i think my engine issues stem from the burned valves... but yeah i'm holding off on it.

the mechanic based his IP suggestion just on the symptoms he could hear and see, kicking, smoking, and past customers, he did not mention bio, not sure if he remembered i ran it.

i don't do the oil changes myself, out of my capacity space wise. do you want to do mine? what i liked about bringing it to the shop was they inspect a bunch of stuff, and the price seemed standard for diesel oil changes, but if you feel like it...
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1985 w123 300D turbo
jan 2018 - ~176,000 miles.
nov 2015 - mar 2017 running tri-state biodiesel, commercially made from restaurant waste veggie oil
looking to start a biodiesel buying club in nyc, brooklyn, queens.
just need somewhere to stash a 100+ gallon drum or tank.
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  #21  
Old 01-12-2018, 01:24 PM
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Another thought, as far as the low compression on cylinder 1: is that still true at this point? Because if it is, you may have fallen into the situation where neglected maintenance by a previous owner left the fuel system partially blocked. When that happens, the injection pump can't supply the later firing cylinders with full charge of fuel. Cylinder 1 gets full shot of fuel, the later cylinders can get less, possibly none. In that situation cylinder 1 carries a disproportionate share of the load over a long period of time, and the rings suffer in cylinder 1 relative to the other cylinders. There are many threads on this; I think Barry is the expert on it.
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  #22  
Old 01-14-2018, 03:09 PM
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Burned valves and worn out rings don't fix themselves or get better with cold weather. On the other hand, carbon build-up on valves and in rings can be removed. In my opinion, if you are finally starting to see improvement after three valve adjustments, then you are wise to hold off on pulling the head for a valve job.

Funola has gotten your car's performance on an upward slope now, keep that momentum up. Change to a good diesel-rate synthetic oil! Mobil 1 5w-40 may improve compression if you've got carbon packing of the rings.

I am worried about the over heating episode - it certainly is possible to crack the iron heads - but you may have dodged a bullet.

Rough running on #1 might be a bad delivery valve? Did you ever have the delivery valve inspected or rebuilt?

Rough idle might also be a symptom made worse by worn out engine mounts?

What else is wrong with the car (mechanically speaking)? Does it burn much oil? Does the engine warm up and stay in the normal operating temperature range? What kind of fuel consumption?
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  #23  
Old 01-14-2018, 04:25 PM
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Exclamation

Until you've removed and checked all the fuel injectors properly, you'd be foolish to consider anything like a valve job .

Beware of by mail people who claim to do injector work .

There's a Diesel injection shop that knows your engine and has the proper test rig pretty much every where in America ~ I didn't see where you're located .
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  #24  
Old 01-14-2018, 05:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Maxbumpo View Post
...............

Funola has gotten your car's performance on an upward slope now, keep that momentum up. Change to a good diesel-rate synthetic oil! Mobil 1 5w-40 may improve compression if you've got carbon packing of the rings.

...........
I tried to help him out and offered to change his oil to 5W40 synthetic and he was all set to come by on Sat. On the day before, he txted me with lot's of questions then changed his mind. I was actually glad because I was not really looking forward to doing it. In the 30 minutes spent txting, I could have changed his oil already. There will not be another offer that's for sure.

Per his previous oil change receipts, the shop indicated 10W40 oil was used and there was also an extra charge for Techron. I tried to tell him 10W40 is a gasoline oil but he says there is 10W40 diesel oil. Anyone familiar with this 10W40 diesel oil? I have never heard of it before. What happens to diesel engine that's run on gasoline oil?
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  #25  
Old 01-14-2018, 10:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gastropodus View Post
... fuel system partially blocked. When that happens, the injection pump can't supply the later firing cylinders with full charge of fuel. Cylinder 1 gets full shot of fuel, the later cylinders can get less, possibly none. ...
Interesting theory. But, please explain what makes cyl #1 preferred regarding fuel delivery. My understanding is that the lift pump supplies a fairly steady 12 psig to the injection pump (IP) inlet. Each cylinder has its own fuel pump in the IP, which draws from the inlet. I think the forward cylinder being termed #1 is fairly arbitrary, and it has no preference in getting fuel.

BTW, it is standard to number cylinders in the order they connect to the crankshaft from front to back. That is why most V engines (V-6, V-8) numbers alternate from side to side. The cylinders are not exactly aligned, so all in one bank are slightly ahead of the other bank. Ford is the exception, numbering down one bank of a V-8 and then the other.
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  #26  
Old 01-14-2018, 10:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by funola View Post
... then changed his mind. ... 10W40 diesel oil? ... What happens to diesel engine that's run on gasoline oil?
Don't fault him/her. It might be the OP's first car, and lack of knowledge creates anxiety. The problem is that many shop's take advantage of that, and are quick to say, "needs a head job" or other $$$ service. Today we have the internet to quickly learn.

I don't know why there couldn't be 10W40 diesel oil. Indeed, I recall my 300D owner's manual lists it in the oil charts. I looked and have 15W40 Rotella T5 diesel oil in the garage. Diesel engine oils have an SAE rating of "CJ" (or at least starts w/ "C"). Not all list approved by Mercedes, but that doesn't stop me. If it is OK for a Cummins diesel, ... Gas engine oils are rated "SI". I understand the main difference is that CJ oils have more detergents to better suspend carbon. You will note how much blacker the oil in your diesel engines gets. I think most also have more zinc than most SI oils, though probably not part of the spec. Some "high mileage" gas oils also have high zinc. Many classic car owners w/ gas engines use diesel oil for the higher zinc and because better quality. I have seen non-detergent motor oil in the dollar store which warns not to use regularly in an automotive engine, so not sure what the intended use (initial engine break-in?).
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  #27  
Old 01-15-2018, 11:06 AM
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Here's some well written articles (not technical) on diesel motor oil. It is supposedly fact checked.

https://itstillruns.com/kind-should-used-diesel-engine-5690628.html
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  #28  
Old 01-18-2018, 12:53 AM
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there's no need to go on and on about 10W40 diesel oil exists when you can just do an internet search and find it exists. search 10W40 rotella, i've done this multiple times now, after each time funola says he thinks it doesn't exist, even after sending those links via text msg. techron for diesel also exists. done.

i had questions about oil because i was shopping for oil to bring, and because people have different ideas about oil, some say don't do synthetic, it's too thin, it'll leak through seals. some say do full synthetic, it'll help w/ seals and compression.

i researched and decided to give synthetic a try, and i had 2 simple questions, do you run 5w40 year round? and how many miles do you run between changes w/ full synthetic, and before getting answers there was unnecessary back and forth about 10w40.

the main reason for getting an oil change was because i thought i was due for one at 3000-3500 miles. i wouldn't change my oil early for other potential benefits because it seems wasteful. the main reason i didn't follow through with the oil change that saturday was because of the number of folks who say they do not change their standard oil until 4500-5000 miles. so again i don't want to waste oil with early changes. it had nothing to do with the other stuff.

i find it silly to receive criticism for trusting a shop that has been working on german cars since the 80s while also receiving criticism for having synthetic vs standard oil questions while shopping for oil for a diy oil change by a fellow w123 owner.

a benefit of going to a trusted shop is spending more time driving than researching. if they say techron is good for the engine, it's only $12, no big a deal, one less thing for me to think about. it's a fuel additive, i imagine it's long gone.

of course there are downsides as well, which is why i am on forums and reaching out to diy'ers, to save money and get other opinions. i trust funola's work, but getting hung up on 10w40 isn't necessary after an internet search.

there are a lot of opinions out there, and everyone thinks there is one answer and they have it.

i just came back to update that with above freezing temperatures, the old symptoms are back again. so the below temperatures are having an effect on something, but those temperatures are not the norm, so the problem is still there.

i'm going to give a can or 2 of liqui moly motor oil saver a go since it claims to rejuvenate seals. i'll report back in 500-1000 miles.

as my signature says i am in nyc, and to clarify, it was not the shop that suggested the valve job, it was after work with funola going through a series of tests and attempts at smaller fixes that we came to the conclusion.

thanks.
__________________
1985 w123 300D turbo
jan 2018 - ~176,000 miles.
nov 2015 - mar 2017 running tri-state biodiesel, commercially made from restaurant waste veggie oil
looking to start a biodiesel buying club in nyc, brooklyn, queens.
just need somewhere to stash a 100+ gallon drum or tank.
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old 01-18-2018, 07:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by allenying View Post
hi, my engine is running rough, with intermittent kicks, and smoking, seems like oil burning.

valves have been adjust a couple times.
rack damper idle adjuster spring bolt has been changed and adjusted.
a few cans of diesel purge have been run, as well as startron.
each gave a small improvement but not complete fix.
there is injector knocking coming from 1st valve, 1st 2 injectors have been been tested for pressure and spray pattern.

compression tests and leak down tests have been done. it seems that there is a leak in the 1st valve, and the compression is lower on it than the other 4 valves.

basically it seems like most things have been ruled out, and the next step is a valve job.


has anyone paid a shop to do this? if so, how much?
i'm going to get a couple estimates, from my shop, and one that comes highly recommended, but i want to be able to gauge if they're over quoting.

also i'm a little worried that i'll end up spending the money on it and for whatever reason it wasn't the problem. based on the info i've given, would anyone have doubts?

thanks in advance,
The combined issues with older engines is a progression to its inevitable end, their are always multiple issues since all parts are wearing slowly.The engine is really just a big air pump.The only way to read its health is pressure and how it tests for pressure.The shop is right.Ask them what other motor conditions would allow air to leak down on that one cylinder.If they come back with a few other possibilities tell them your ok with just a simple fix .Sometimes they have to hear that to let them know your not looking to burden a high cost repair.Run ,test, repeat for other ears ,a video might chime in some ideas.Ive owned a bleeder, 2 cylinders were burdened with it ,bought the car with really a non running engine, I should of done the head or at least opened it up to find out the problem . Found another healthy motor for cheap and skipped the shops all together.Hope this helped .
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aJAZvqQp0KY
I would follow this advise .

Last edited by chasinthesun; 01-18-2018 at 08:11 AM.
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  #30  
Old 01-18-2018, 10:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by allenying View Post
there's no need to go on and on about 10W40 diesel oil exists when you can just do an internet search and find it exists. search 10W40 rotella, i've done this multiple times now, after each time funola says he thinks it doesn't exist, even after sending those links via text msg. techron for diesel also exists. done.

i had questions about oil because i was shopping for oil to bring, and because people have different ideas about oil, some say don't do synthetic, it's too thin, it'll leak through seals. some say do full synthetic, it'll help w/ seals and compression.

i researched and decided to give synthetic a try, and i had 2 simple questions, do you run 5w40 year round? and how many miles do you run between changes w/ full synthetic, and before getting answers there was unnecessary back and forth about 10w40.

the main reason for getting an oil change was because i thought i was due for one at 3000-3500 miles. i wouldn't change my oil early for other potential benefits because it seems wasteful. the main reason i didn't follow through with the oil change that saturday was because of the number of folks who say they do not change their standard oil until 4500-5000 miles. so again i don't want to waste oil with early changes. it had nothing to do with the other stuff.

i find it silly to receive criticism for trusting a shop that has been working on german cars since the 80s while also receiving criticism for having synthetic vs standard oil questions while shopping for oil for a diy oil change by a fellow w123 owner.

a benefit of going to a trusted shop is spending more time driving than researching. if they say techron is good for the engine, it's only $12, no big a deal, one less thing for me to think about. it's a fuel additive, i imagine it's long gone.

of course there are downsides as well, which is why i am on forums and reaching out to diy'ers, to save money and get other opinions. i trust funola's work, but getting hung up on 10w40 isn't necessary after an internet search.

there are a lot of opinions out there, and everyone thinks there is one answer and they have it.

i just came back to update that with above freezing temperatures, the old symptoms are back again. so the below temperatures are having an effect on something, but those temperatures are not the norm, so the problem is still there.

i'm going to give a can or 2 of liqui moly motor oil saver a go since it claims to rejuvenate seals. i'll report back in 500-1000 miles.

as my signature says i am in nyc, and to clarify, it was not the shop that suggested the valve job, it was after work with funola going through a series of tests and attempts at smaller fixes that we came to the conclusion.

thanks.
Getting pissy in a forum that's trying to help you, especially towards a forum member doing work for you to save you money is going to win you no friends or allies. Keep that in mind before you go on a rant.

10W-40 oil in diesel specification is not common. It isn't a stock item at a Jiffy-lube place and certainly isn't in parts stores. The skepticism is there for a reason. Just because it exists doesn't mean that's what's in your car, unless you have some sort of specialty garage and that's all they stock.

The arguments of Synthetic vs. Conventional go back to the 70s. Back then, synthetics were primitive and caused foaming issues, seal leaks, etc. The synthetics of today are far superior to those old ones, but the stigma remains.

The bottom line - if you have a leak after changing the oil, it was there before you changed it. Changing to a synthetic oil brings a superior detergent pack that will clean more sludge and varnish than conventional oil will. A lot of people interpret that to "synthetic oil made my car leak" when in reality it was already leaking, the tide was only held back by the crap left in the engine.

Pushing to 5000 miles on an oil change running conventional oil in an engine that's questionable is not wise. If you're running a 606, fine, but not in a 617. 3000 on conventional, 5000 on a GOOD synthetic. It's the soot loading and detergent strength that dictates when to change, not the brand or viscosity.

Also of worthy note: If you're really interested in saving money, skip the "seal rejuvenator". It's snake oil.
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