Parts Catalog Accessories Catalog How To Articles Tech Forums
Call Pelican Parts at 888-280-7799
Shopping Cart Cart | Project List | Order Status | Help



Go Back   PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum > Mercedes-Benz Tech Information and Support > Diesel Discussion

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
  #166  
Old 04-13-2018, 07:40 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
Posts: 233
right, maybe i'd have a better chance looking for a DIY forum member who is willing and able to pull the head, and bring it to edward's in MD...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Father Of Giants View Post
Go send it to a machine shop that are familiar with these engines. That's if you can manage taking the head off yourself and sending it to them, then you will save a LOT of money. They'll replace the valves for you, but hell, you can take things a step further and get a complete head rebuild at the machine shop at a fraction of what they are quoting you for 'their job'.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Simpler=Better View Post
I spent $380 for Edward's Automotive in Timonium, MD to check my 617 head for cracks/flatness, hot tank it, install new valve guides & seals, and re-lap all the valves.


__________________
w123
1985 300D turbo sept 2015 - present
1985 300TD turbo oct 2023 - present
looking for biodiesel in nyc
Reply With Quote
  #167  
Old 04-14-2018, 09:27 AM
Diesel Preferred
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Charleston SC
Posts: 2,788
There's a 300SD with a head that'll fit your car in a junkyard local to me, they charge about $110 or so plus tax. The rub is the time and labor to pull it and the risk that it might be bad.

My point is you could pull a head from a junkyard engine or buy a used head, get that rebuilt, then just pay the shop to install it.
Reply With Quote
  #168  
Old 04-14-2018, 09:29 AM
Diesel Preferred
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Charleston SC
Posts: 2,788
Search here for a used head:

Car-Part.com--Used Auto Parts Market
Reply With Quote
  #169  
Old 04-14-2018, 10:26 AM
funola's Avatar
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: NYC
Posts: 8,245
Quote:
Originally Posted by allenying View Post
.............

he referred to possible leaks as either being from top or bottom. wouldn't exhaust be bottom? in which case he says it's a $10G job, which is too much.

funola do you think checking internal IP fuel pressure and adjust the overflow valve spring will make a significant difference?

...........
Everything in the head is top, everything below the head is bottom, i.e. block, rings, pistons, rods, crank etc. Exh valve is in the head, so that would be top. Maybe a good idea for you to look up on youtube "how engines work" to learn some basics?

What does "significant difference" mean to you? I can say for sure restoring IP base fuel pressure to spec won't help with the burnt valves, nor the oil burning smoke. It may help with the rough idle and kicking, if low base IP fuel pressure is the cause of these issues. I know for a fact that 617 engines will not run with zero IP base fuel pressure and run rough with low fuel pressure. I have tested those conditions when I was developing adjustable overflow valves.

If the overflow valve in your car is original, chances of it having a weak spring is very high.
__________________
85 300D turbo pristine w 157k when purchased 161K now
83 300 D turbo 297K runs great. SOLD!
83 240D 4 spd manual- parted out then junked
Reply With Quote
  #170  
Old 04-14-2018, 05:55 PM
vwnate1's Avatar
Diesel Dandy
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Sunny So. Cal. !
Posts: 7,717
You really need to have Funola do the diagnosis then the repair works .

*if* you get a valve job, BE SURE to replace ALL the valve guides and replace ALL the valve guide oil seals with new ones ONLY for Mercedes Benz ! -NO- aftermarket .
__________________
-Nate
1982 240D 408,XXX miles
Ignorance is the mother of suspicion and fear is the father

I did then what I knew how to do ~ now that I know better I do better
Reply With Quote
  #171  
Old 04-16-2018, 05:52 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
Posts: 233
so maybe they want to do their own cylinder leak test to make sure there isn't also a leak on the bottom? so they don't do the valve job, have to charge me $3-4G only to find out there's also a leak on the bottom? surely the 2 shops can't just listen to whatever the average customer says they did...

i'm just trying to be careful, funola are you fully sure the leakdown test we did was fully thorough? we had to use a microphone to hear it over the ambient wind/tree and highway noise, i'm not sure how clinical these tests are supposed to be, or if there was room for error etc. if you're sure then ok, just trying to be careful.

i'm gonna see if i have any alternatives to the 2 shops.

thanks.
__________________
w123
1985 300D turbo sept 2015 - present
1985 300TD turbo oct 2023 - present
looking for biodiesel in nyc
Reply With Quote
  #172  
Old 04-16-2018, 06:55 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: central Texas
Posts: 17,281
Quote:
Originally Posted by vwnate1 View Post
You really need to have Funola do the diagnosis then the repair works .

*if* you get a valve job, BE SURE to replace ALL the valve guides and replace ALL the valve guide oil seals with new ones ONLY for Mercedes Benz ! -NO- aftermarket .
AND NEW valve SPRINGS... they are cheap ....
surely no machine shop would do a valve job without replacing the springs too...
and you must provide them with the FSM to be able to expect them to do it correctly... Don't let them do a ' generic ' valve job based on NON MB specs and clearances....
Reply With Quote
  #173  
Old 04-17-2018, 12:35 AM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 5,924
It is kind of sad today. Using paid for service on old cars is very expensive. It really has reached the point that you do it yourself or most of the labor. Or you buy newer cars. This way you also can control parts cost to some extent.

For example to me 395.00 for a leak down test is well over the top. You can get a tester for around fifty dollars for occasional use. The parts cost should only be the resealing washers for the injectors.

Or if they or you use the glow plug holes nothing. The labor charging system for auto repairs today. Is more based on newer cars than our old buggies.

We as an old couple can afford paid for service. The last estimate for a relatively easy job was so high once again I did it myself. In my opinion on engine work where the head may have to come off. The car had better be in really pretty good condition. Especially if old overall to justify the expense of a paid for situation. Of that magnitude.

Or if you like these cars you should be able to find a decent example with a good engine for far less than the repair bill you are contemplating. The market for these cars pricewise has really softened.

You can buy an old car that needs almost nothing. Or you can buy an old car that is going to be fundamentally a restoration project. They can be a financial and finding the time to do it struggle. Even if you do all the work yourself.

Now younger and lacking much disposable funds is both good and bad.. This should be a period where you learn how to buy. A period that far too many miss today.

It should be a right of passage. It teaches you how to cope with what is in my opinion. I went through it as well as many of my now very old generation when young. Better today I did than otherwise. Fundamentally you are poor. During that time you can learn many things. As long as you actually do not feel poor. That can make you fairly well off much faster in comparison to many that did not pass through that situation.
Reply With Quote
  #174  
Old 04-17-2018, 12:45 AM
vwnate1's Avatar
Diesel Dandy
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Sunny So. Cal. !
Posts: 7,717
Post Keeping It Up

Thanx Barry ;

You make good points here .

FWIW, 'poor' is a state of mind not really related to being broke.....

I refuse to go there no matter how little ca$h I may have at any time .

The repairs thing is so right . sadly in my decades as a Journeyman Mechanic fully 90 % of the works I did were fixing DPO and DPM mistakes and errors so as long as I can hold my tools I'll do as much of the repair works as I can .

Buying a 10 + year old restoration is always going o get your best bang for the buck .


I've bought insurance salvage wrecks to scavenge the parts out of, talk about pennies on the dollar ! wow, sweet .
__________________
-Nate
1982 240D 408,XXX miles
Ignorance is the mother of suspicion and fear is the father

I did then what I knew how to do ~ now that I know better I do better
Reply With Quote
  #175  
Old 04-17-2018, 11:16 AM
ROLLGUY's Avatar
ROLLGUY
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 7,229
Years ago when I got my first 'Benz ('82 300CD red/black for $300), I knew nothing about Diesels. The car came with a Haynes manual, and I figured out that the head needed rebuilding. Having never touched a Diesel engine before that time, I was able to pull the head myself. Having that repair manual and an internet connection provided all the help I needed. I found a shop that was willing to rebuild the head, and I then installed it. I would not have been able to afford to pay ANY shop to do all the R&R of the head. The machine shop work alone almost broke me, but it was worth it for me to get such a cool car running. These are definitely tinkerers cars. They are also too old for most shops, they don't have any "old school" mechanics left (the young ones only know how to replace parts, not actually FIX anything). The moral of this story is: Do absolutely as MUCH work on the car as you possibly can, even if it means purchasing some specialized tools (I don't mean machining tools, but hand tools). At the time I thought that pulling a head was way beyond my capabilities, but once I got into it, it was actually fairly easy. These cars are really dead simple, and that is what makes them so much fun to work on. Working on these cars is inexpensive education. There is also much satisfaction when you get done with a repair when your wallet is still as thick after, as it was when you started (at least as far as labor is concerned)......Rich
Reply With Quote
  #176  
Old 04-17-2018, 11:44 AM
funola's Avatar
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: NYC
Posts: 8,245
$3-4 K for a valve job on a 617 diesel is ridiculous, $10k to include the bottom end is even more ridiculous. This is the same shop that put the wrong oil in your engine then back track on it. Find someone else more reasonable! I already told you I do not have the space to pull the head. That has not changed.

As for your question whether the leak down test we did was thorough. The answer is YES for cyl #1. It would have been nice to do another cylinder as a comparison but that was not done due to time constraint. You were part of the test, you did the listening with your ears and when you found the noise too faint, I brought out an FM wireless mic and FM radio with earphones which essentially works as a hearing aid to amplify the faint leaking sound. You were able to hear it leaking out the exhaust.

You also listened at the dipstick which is the bottom end and you did not hear a leak, listened at the air cleaner inlet which is the intake valve and you did not hear a leak, also looked at the expansion tank for bubbles and found none.
__________________
85 300D turbo pristine w 157k when purchased 161K now
83 300 D turbo 297K runs great. SOLD!
83 240D 4 spd manual- parted out then junked

Last edited by funola; 04-17-2018 at 12:00 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #177  
Old 04-17-2018, 06:37 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
Posts: 233
right, thanks.

it is the same shop that we thought used the wrong oil, but then confirmed later with pics that they stock and use liqui moly and xcess diesel oils that have decent zinc and moly content.

yes, i meant to mention we had time restraints to our work session when doing the tests, which is why i just wanted to make sure it we were sure about the 1st cyl. thanks.

it's good to hear $3-$4k is ridiculous, it means i have to keep asking around, maybe there's a DIY person somewhere in the northeast i can drive to and pay to work on it.
__________________
w123
1985 300D turbo sept 2015 - present
1985 300TD turbo oct 2023 - present
looking for biodiesel in nyc
Reply With Quote
  #178  
Old 04-22-2018, 12:43 PM
ykobayashi's Avatar
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Irvine, CA
Posts: 1,261
Hi,

I’ve been quietly reading along this thread. A lot of what to do depends on the owner (OP). Good that a leakdown test was done on #1. Sounds like the exhaust valve is roasted and needs to be redone. Now that this is established its time to do something. And this depends on the owner.

Time to pull the head or sell the car and get something else. These cars can get expensive when using an independent mechanic. Yes, indys need to survive, but it is expensive being part of their survival strategy. Inflation you know, they need to pay their overhead too.

Given the way the OP is talking, DIY head removal and rebuild is prolly not in the stars. I had a similar problem on my wagon. Low comp on #1 which turned out to be piston to wall clearance. The head had to come off and it was not a novice job.

1979 300TD smoking saga

That being said for academic purposes, I thought I would mention that I have had a recent success recutting four valve seats at home with Neway cutters. I priced out head work for my motorcycle and it came out to slightly more than a Neway cutter tool. I got the tool and took a crack at it and it worked well...on an air cooled motorcycle.

https://thumpertalk.com/forums/topic/1172159-cut-my-own-valve-seats-on-my-xr400/#comment-12915587

Not sure this would carry over to OM617 seats or that a the OP should run out and do this. Just mentioning it for academic interest...it may be another possible solution.

The Neway cutter produced a cut finish rather than a polished and ground finish. You don’t polish. You just reassemble and run the engine. The irregularities peen themselves down and the valve seals. My motorcycle took about thirty kicks to develop compression (totally nerve wrecking after reassembling on faith alone).

Good luck Allenying. I hope you get it fixed.

Funny how expensive pro maintenance is driving the cost on used 123s down around the country. In SoCal where I am people on Craigslist are asking really high prices (at least ones I won’t pay) for clapped out cars that they claim will go “1 million miles”.

Either way I think the more you can do yourself the better off you’ll be with one of these.
__________________
79 300TD “Old Smokey” AKA “The Mistake” (SOLD)
82 240D stick shift 335k miles (SOLD)
82 300SD 300k miles
85 300D Turbodiesel 170k miles
Reply With Quote
  #179  
Old 04-23-2018, 03:19 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
Posts: 233
thanks,
edwards auto machine shop in timonium, md seems to have closed down.

someone suggested ordering a rebuilt head from
metric motors
Remanufactured Cylinder Heads

$1050 for a rebuilt head + $600 core deposit, which will not be returned if my head is cracked or irreparable
$110 to ship each way, 74lb UPS

that's $1760 + whatever a shop will charge to swap heads,
unless i do ship mine back and get $490 back...

i'm going to keep looking for other shops or maybe forum members in a 3 hour radius of NYC. it's just a little hard to trust a shop without a recommendation from someone in the forums
__________________
w123
1985 300D turbo sept 2015 - present
1985 300TD turbo oct 2023 - present
looking for biodiesel in nyc

Last edited by allenying; 04-23-2018 at 04:04 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #180  
Old 04-23-2018, 04:08 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
Posts: 233
a shop called westchester crankshaft grinding
Engine Rebuilders, Engine Machine Shop, Engine Parts, Cylinder Heads - New York Engine & Machine Inc.
says $550 and up to rebuild a om617.

of course metric motors got me paranoid that my head could be cracked, even from overheating mildly once when the water pump went. it wasn't severe enough to need a new thermostat, based on the fact the heat is still working as it was before, and the temp gauge seems close to standard...

so it's kind of a Q of trying to have the head redone vs replacing with a rebuilt...

__________________
w123
1985 300D turbo sept 2015 - present
1985 300TD turbo oct 2023 - present
looking for biodiesel in nyc
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On




All times are GMT -4. The time now is 06:57 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0
Copyright 2024 Pelican Parts, LLC - Posts may be archived for display on the Peach Parts or Pelican Parts Website -    DMCA Registered Agent Contact Page