Diesel Ban in Stuttgart?? - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

shertex · #1 02-27-2018, 05:06 PM

The beginning of the end.

https://www.thelocal.de/20180227/federal-court-gives-green-light-for-diesel-ban-in-german-cities

I love how the acronym for the environmentalist group is DUH.

tjts1 · #2 02-27-2018, 07:31 PM

A lot of cities in Europe are banning diesel cars. Diesel car sales in Europe are tanking in favor of hybrids and EVs. This ruling simply gives permission to Germany cities to do the same.

okyoureabeast · #3 02-27-2018, 11:57 PM

I lived in Europe for a few years. On a personal level, I immensely enjoyed it. Fun place and good people.

However, this was one of my least favorite aspects of living there, especially so when this pointless scandal hit.

The "environment" has become the go-to rallying cry for do-nothing politicians to pander to a knowledge-heavy, wisdom poor electorate. Much like how same-sex marriage and abortion are distractions in American politics, European politicians use silly concerns like air quality to punish their most important economic drivers.

If you read reports from any European mainstream media outlet, you'll think acid rain is melting away priceless European monuments and air quality is so bad that the average person has to wear masks outside. Take a visit to London, Amsterdam, Berlin, Vienna, Paris, hell even Stuttgart, the air quality on the ground is incredible and far better than what you'd see in New York, Chicago, or Los Angeles.

With all of this said, i'm definitely not one to disregard environmental issues. I take short showers, turn off electronics when i'm not using them, reduce, reuse, recycle, and I even drove a Prius (ok, it happened to be the cheapest used car on the lot).

It's just hard to take this scandal so seriously when there are much much bigger problems brewing underneath the surface like say the massive youth unemployment rates, stagnant economic climate, average birthrates of 1.1 , and my personal favorite: the overuse and underfunded public healthcare systems with wonderful striking doctors and 6+ month long waits for specialists (yes, it took my wife and I that long to see specialists).

And that's not even including the self-inflicted wounds which can be discussed further elsewhere.

But boy of boy your average Londoner, Parisian, and Berliner can be absolutely delightful. I sometimes miss living there, but being reminded of this hilarious stuff like this makes me glad I left.

tjts1 · #4 02-28-2018, 01:39 AM

Thank you for your wisdom heavy knowledge poor diatribe.

t walgamuth · #5 02-28-2018, 07:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by okyoureabeast

I lived in Europe for a few years. On a personal level, I immensely enjoyed it. Fun place and good people.

However, this was one of my least favorite aspects of living there, especially so when this pointless scandal hit.

The "environment" has become the go-to rallying cry for do-nothing politicians to pander to a knowledge-heavy, wisdom poor electorate. Much like how same-sex marriage and abortion are distractions in American politics, European politicians use silly concerns like air quality to punish their most important economic drivers.

If you read reports from any European mainstream media outlet, you'll think acid rain is melting away priceless European monuments and air quality is so bad that the average person has to wear masks outside. Take a visit to London, Amsterdam, Berlin, Vienna, Paris, hell even Stuttgart, the air quality on the ground is incredible and far better than what you'd see in New York, Chicago, or Los Angeles.

With all of this said, i'm definitely not one to disregard environmental issues. I take short showers, turn off electronics when i'm not using them, reduce, reuse, recycle, and I even drove a Prius (ok, it happened to be the cheapest used car on the lot).

It's just hard to take this scandal so seriously when there are much much bigger problems brewing underneath the surface like say the massive youth unemployment rates, stagnant economic climate, average birthrates of 1.1 , and my personal favorite: the overuse and underfunded public healthcare systems with wonderful striking doctors and 6+ month long waits for specialists (yes, it took my wife and I that long to see specialists).

And that's not even including the self-inflicted wounds which can be discussed further elsewhere.

But boy of boy your average Londoner, Parisian, and Berliner can be absolutely delightful. I sometimes miss living there, but being reminded of this hilarious stuff like this makes me glad I left.

You have an interesting love hate relationship with Europe. These type of laws do not happen by accident. People care about the environment or they would not vote for the pols. The laws shape the culture and the culture shapes the laws.

Europeans probably think America is like the wild west with no laws and a lot of guns! They like visiting here though.... and plenty like to immigrate here as well. We still are the land of opportunity.

t walgamuth · #6 02-28-2018, 07:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by okyoureabeast

I lived in Europe for a few years. On a personal level, I immensely enjoyed it. Fun place and good people.

However, this was one of my least favorite aspects of living there, especially so when this pointless scandal hit.

The "environment" has become the go-to rallying cry for do-nothing politicians to pander to a knowledge-heavy, wisdom poor electorate. Much like how same-sex marriage and abortion are distractions in American politics, European politicians use silly concerns like air quality to punish their most important economic drivers.

If you read reports from any European mainstream media outlet, you'll think acid rain is melting away priceless European monuments and air quality is so bad that the average person has to wear masks outside. Take a visit to London, Amsterdam, Berlin, Vienna, Paris, hell even Stuttgart, the air quality on the ground is incredible and far better than what you'd see in New York, Chicago, or Los Angeles.

With all of this said, i'm definitely not one to disregard environmental issues. I take short showers, turn off electronics when i'm not using them, reduce, reuse, recycle, and I even drove a Prius (ok, it happened to be the cheapest used car on the lot).

It's just hard to take this scandal so seriously when there are much much bigger problems brewing underneath the surface like say the massive youth unemployment rates, stagnant economic climate, average birthrates of 1.1 , and my personal favorite: the overuse and underfunded public healthcare systems with wonderful striking doctors and 6+ month long waits for specialists (yes, it took my wife and I that long to see specialists).

And that's not even including the self-inflicted wounds which can be discussed further elsewhere.

But boy of boy your average Londoner, Parisian, and Berliner can be absolutely delightful. I sometimes miss living there, but being reminded of this hilarious stuff like this makes me glad I left.

You have an interesting love hate relationship with Europe. These type of laws do not happen by accident. People care about the environment or they would not vote for the pols. The laws shape the culture and the culture shapes the laws.

Europeans probably think America is like the wild west with no laws and a lot of guns! They like visiting here though.... and plenty like to immigrate here as well. We still are the land of opportunity.

As for the diesel ban I suspect it will be a lot like the discouragement of London to having cars downtown.

TimFreeh · #7 02-28-2018, 09:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tjts1

Thank you for your wisdom heavy knowledge poor diatribe.

I kind of appreciated his response. Just to correct your knowledge on the EV/Diesel front Diesel car sales in the EU have declined about 5-10 percent in 2017 I'd guess mostly in reaction to the VW scandal. Given the press coverage about the scandal I'm kind of surprised its only 5-10 percent. Diesel passenger car sales are still running 40-50% of total EU sales.

Total number of EV+Hybrid sales in the EU for 2017 are now 1.4% of total sales.

I'm sure in your mind this equates to 'tanking' but I just wanted the more objective people here to know the actual numbers that constitute 'tanking'. I'm sure you don't object?

I think Europe is actually a pretty good place for EV's, not very big geographically and I'm sure pollution can be an issue in large urban areas. Remote-polluting Li-on battery technology might actually gain a foothold in that environment.

97 SL320 · #8 02-28-2018, 10:19 AM

I'd like to hear from people that are native to Europe as they would have the best info.

TimFreeh · #9 02-28-2018, 10:27 AM

After looking at EU hybrid and EV sales data via some web searches I also just noticed that apparently North American sales of hybrids actually peaked a couple of years ago and is currently in decline. I guess this isn't too surprising do to cheap gas prices over the last few years.

I'm kind of surprised by this data since I seem to see a lot more Prius's (whats the plural for Prius?) on the road these days.

cho · #10 02-28-2018, 10:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 97 SL320

I'd like to hear from people that are native to Europe as they would have the best info.

A top German court on Tuesday ruled that cities can impose diesel driving bans to combat air pollution, in a landmark decision that could shake up the auto industry and upend transport policies.

whenever CAN is imposed...it means it will take decade to implement..or not

euro guy

.

cho · #11 02-28-2018, 10:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by t walgamuth

Europeans probably think America is like the wild west with no laws and a lot of guns! ... well no, but lots of urban gangs do scare us

They like visiting here though.... yes
and plenty like to immigrate here as well....yes
We still are the land of opportunity.....hmmmmm....

cheers

.

cho · #12 02-28-2018, 10:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TimFreeh

Total number of EV+Hybrid sales in the EU for 2017 are now 1.4% of total sales.

that percentage has to be bigger...EU and Europe is not same...as the EV sale is best in Switzerland and Norway (both non members of EU(nion))

cheers

.

okyoureabeast · #13 02-28-2018, 11:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by t walgamuth

You have an interesting love hate relationship with Europe. These type of laws do not happen by accident. People care about the environment or they would not vote for the pols. The laws shape the culture and the culture shapes the laws.

Europeans probably think America is like the wild west with no laws and a lot of guns! They like visiting here though.... and plenty like to immigrate here as well. We still are the land of opportunity.

As for the diesel ban I suspect it will be a lot like the discouragement of London to having cars downtown.

It's not really hate, just disillusionment. From a very young age, I was incorrectly told Europe was some sort of utopia , an example of how America should be run.

The reality is, it's just like any other place with a lot of ups and a lot of downs. All things considered, i'd rather have the disappointments that trouble America rather
than the ones that trouble the average European.

The gun control situation on the ground over there is particularly heinous. When the pulse nightclub shooting happened in Florida, the BBC was all over that like a bad date explaining how superior their gun control is.

Except gun crime is a yearly problem there. Bataclan happened a few months prior and later a pro remain MP gets shot before the Brexit vote. They just also happen to find stashes upon stashes of smuggled assault rifles all of the time in various raids. Don't forget all of the knife crime that happens at intervals that rival American gun crime. Right when I left, they were debating arming their police with pistols because of the influx of crime. It was becoming a common sight to see armed English army regulars in central London. Paris especially has become hardened with armed soldiers . The Eiffel Tower in particular has become completely enclosed in with walls and fences. The whole ascetic of the area has been ruined.

As for the diesel ban, i'm more annoyed that they went for an outright ban as opposed to a tax which is more equitable in my opinion. As you mentioned, London simply charges a "congestion" fee for driving through zone 1 during the weekly commute.

The rich simply own homes in that part of town reducing their charge from £11 something to like a quid or two. You really don't need to drive thankfully, however the big scandal I remember was that the charge wasn't doing anything to reduce traffic. It has just become another tax for the city to gorge on.

A tax for thee and not for me (happens more than you think). Most people I tell these stories to are taken aback, expecting the average European to be living it up. It's not really the case. If America opened up immigration to Europe, there would be a massive drain both mental and financial. Europeans would jump at the opportunity to live here.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tjts1

Thank you for your wisdom heavy knowledge poor diatribe.

Wisdom is not a product of schooling but of the lifelong attempt to acquire it.

Edit: thanks for the posts Cho. Gotta always be aware of those political weasel words!

tjts1 · #14 02-28-2018, 11:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TimFreeh

After looking at EU hybrid and EV sales data via some web searches I also just noticed that apparently North American sales of hybrids actually peaked a couple of years ago and is currently in decline. I guess this isn't too surprising do to cheap gas prices over the last few years.

I'm kind of surprised by this data since I seem to see a lot more Prius's (whats the plural for Prius?) on the road these days.

EVs are cannibalizing the hybrid market and gasoline engines are getting more efficient. Meanwhile in the old world, Tesla’s Model S outsold Germany’s flagship sedans in Europe in 2017
I can't believe the Germans let themselves fall this far behind by ignoring EVs for so long.

German 2017 car sales up 2.7 pct, diesels plunge

97 SL320 · #15 02-28-2018, 12:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tjts1

I can't believe the Germans let themselves fall this far behind by ignoring EVs for so long.

Does Germany have enough electrical power for many EV cars?

Also, in the US there is greater opportunity for an EV to take hold due to a larger population base and more $ ( remember something like 1/2 of all higher end MB go to the USA ).

Another issue is where to charge these cars. In the US most everyone has a convent / consistent place to park and charge a car where as in Euro cities, there may not be a good or consistent place to park.