Parts Catalog Accessories Catalog How To Articles Tech Forums
Call Pelican Parts at 888-280-7799
Shopping Cart Cart | Project List | Order Status | Help




Go Back   PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum > Mercedes-Benz Tech Information and Support > Diesel Discussion

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
  #16  
Old 06-08-2018, 11:09 AM
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: The slums of Beverly Hills
Posts: 5,884
Quote:
Originally Posted by sloride View Post
Who knows if they are cheating?
Prove it.

Every diesel engine after the 2015 fiasco has been tested and retested both in labs and the real world. CARB and a few other independent labs in the US and Europe buy random cars off dealer lots and test them. They're still finding cheaters in the Euro market, not so much in the US. The Chevy Colorado diesel was delayed for months because of the extra scrutiny. MB decided to pull it's diesel out of the US market when they found out it was going to tested in the real world. FCA V6 also got caught cheating the same way.

It's pathetic that Mercedes Benz resorted to cheating because it's saved them a little bit of money. Mercedes, VW and Fiat/Chrysler, BMW (in Europe only) and PSA have been caught cheating. If anybody else was cheating they wouldve been caught by now.

Something you might not realize is there are more new diesel powered cars available for sale in 2018 in the US than back in 2015 when VW first got busted. The only diesels you don't see for sale anymore are the ones that cheated.

Last edited by tjts1; 06-08-2018 at 11:23 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 06-08-2018, 12:37 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 4,445
So maybe diesel car sales are not dead in north America. I did see some modified used buy back versions on the local volkswagon dealers place.

Since they only sell turbo gas engines new now. I asked them what they where doing at informing customers on how to treat them. They told me there is an electric oil pump that comes on when you shut the engine off. To automatically circulate oil through the turbo bearings for a minute.
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 06-08-2018, 12:45 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 4,445
Quote:
Originally Posted by t walgamuth View Post
They're cheating. Count on it. The others just have not been caught yet.

I read that VW is holding the unsold diesels, converting them to be legal and selling them as new cars with warranties for reduced prices.

I might ask them for the prices next time I am near their dealership. On a lower milage buy back. Especially if I could get the modification undone and the price is right. Either the wife or myself drive past that dealership 60 miles away. About once week or more. If those are really reprogrammed buy backs they may not be selling well. I do not think they were brand new ones reprogrammed. They might have been though.

Part of the reason for the cheating was the excess amount of carbon buildup in the engine. With the anti pollution system constantly working. If other manufacturers are able to meet emission requirements with no major downsides. Volkswagon should be able to engage the same designs. Currently at least in Canada really new diesels are thought not to continue. At the same time I doubt they will want to give up on the European market if others can market their diesel brands there. Volkswagon never marketed their diesel car that gives almost a hundred miles per gallon in north America. It sold too well in Europe to just write off the possibility of that product. Although with volkswagom building 500 thousand electric golfs in China this year may change this. My understanding at this point is the electrics produced there are not for export this year.

Last edited by barry12345; 06-08-2018 at 01:19 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 06-08-2018, 12:57 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 6,388
Quote:
Originally Posted by tjts1 View Post

Every diesel engine after the 2015 fiasco has been tested and retested both in labs and the real world. CARB and a few other independent labs in the US and Europe buy random cars off dealer lots and test them.
Is there a master list of cars that have been random tested?


Quote:
Originally Posted by tjts1 View Post
They're still finding cheaters in the Euro market, not so much in the US.
How is the Euro test different than the US test? Are the Euro specs more stringent?

Or are the non compliant cars Euro only? If the non compliant cars are Euro only, the parent company should not get a pass in the US as the company as a whole cheated.
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 06-08-2018, 01:05 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Phoenix Arizona. Ex Durban R.S.A.
Posts: 3,321
Quote:
Originally Posted by t walgamuth View Post
They're cheating. Count on it. The others just have not been caught yet.
That's what I think too.

There was a lot of song and dance in the motoring press a couple of years back when Mazda released their new 6 series about their plans to provide a diesel version. It was scrapped. Couldn't meet emissions standards. I guess they decided trying to cheat wasn't worth it.

- Peter.
__________________
81 240D stick. 316000 miles at purchase. 340000 now
2000 GMC Sonoma
Formerly...
2002 Kia Rio. Worst crap on four wheels
1981 240D 4spd stick. 389000 miles. Deceased Jan 08
1984 123 200
1979 116 280S
1972 Cadillac Sedan DeVille
1971 108 280S
Reply With Quote
  #21  
Old 06-08-2018, 01:12 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: The slums of Beverly Hills
Posts: 5,884
Quote:
Originally Posted by pj67coll View Post
That's what I think too.

There was a lot of song and dance in the motoring press a couple of years back when Mazda released their new 6 series about their plans to provide a diesel version. It was scrapped. Couldn't meet emissions standards. I guess they decided trying to cheat wasn't worth it.

- Peter.
Mazda tried to meet emissions without the use of DEF, the same way VW claimed they did before getting caught. When they realized that wasn't possible, Mazda opted to not sell the engine in the US market instead of cheating. They have a redesigned diesel engine coming to the US marked in 2019 with DEF.
https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1116333_mazda-gets-california-approval-for-cx-5-diesel

The emissions standards aren't the problem. The problem is the corpotations that choose to cheat.
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 06-08-2018, 01:40 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 4,445
Quote:
Originally Posted by pj67coll View Post
That's what I think too.

There was a lot of song and dance in the motoring press a couple of years back when Mazda released their new 6 series about their plans to provide a diesel version. It was scrapped. Couldn't meet emissions standards. I guess they decided trying to cheat wasn't worth it.

- Peter.


Mazda seems to be losing ground here. Toyota seems to be continuing to constantly gain the percentage of the Japanese car sales.


Even though they claim to be reducing overall quality. The manufacturer claims their margins per unit are sub standard as the reason. Plus meeting ever increasing production requirements is proving more difficult.
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 06-08-2018, 01:55 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: The slums of Beverly Hills
Posts: 5,884
Quote:
Originally Posted by 97 SL320 View Post
Is there a master list of cars that have been random tested?




How is the Euro test different than the US test? Are the Euro specs more stringent?

Or are the non compliant cars Euro only? If the non compliant cars are Euro only, the parent company should not get a pass in the US as the company as a whole cheated.
Every single diesel model sold in the US today has been real world on road tested. This is part of both the EPA and CARB revised policy after dieselgate. They use a minituarized version of a normal emissions lab that fits in the trunk. This technology was still experimental in 2014 when regulators became suspicious. VW got caught with this very technology when it was still under development.
https://mobile.nytimes.com/2017/05/06/business/inside-vws-campaign-of-trickery.html?smid=tw-nytimes&smtyp=cur&_r=0


https://www.insurancejournal.com/news/national/2016/06/29/418590.htm

Last edited by tjts1; 06-08-2018 at 04:15 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 06-08-2018, 03:50 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Phoenix Arizona. Ex Durban R.S.A.
Posts: 3,321
Quote:
Originally Posted by barry12345 View Post
Mazda seems to be losing ground here. Toyota seems to be continuing to constantly gain the percentage of the Japanese car sales.


Even though they claim to be reducing overall quality. The manufacturer claims their margins per unit are sub standard as the reason. Plus meeting ever increasing production requirements is proving more difficult.
Which manufacturer are you referring to claiming that they are reducing overall quality? Hard to believe any manufacturer would claim that.

- Peter.
__________________
81 240D stick. 316000 miles at purchase. 340000 now
2000 GMC Sonoma
Formerly...
2002 Kia Rio. Worst crap on four wheels
1981 240D 4spd stick. 389000 miles. Deceased Jan 08
1984 123 200
1979 116 280S
1972 Cadillac Sedan DeVille
1971 108 280S
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 06-09-2018, 04:18 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 4,445
Quote:
Originally Posted by pj67coll View Post
Which manufacturer are you referring to claiming that they are reducing overall quality? Hard to believe any manufacturer would claim that.

- Peter.
The Toyota corporation.


This was an announcement by their CEO. Basically stating they are providing too much quality for the price their products sell at. Also the quality of parts they demand from third party suppliers are expensive.

Toyota demands very high abnormal quality standards for parts and as a result this is where the cost savings are suggested to occur. I would preffer they chose to bump up their prices more in line with Honda cars instead.

Toyota has a valid point overall though. Statistically their products stay on the road longer on average than any other brand. About five years longer. Perhaps requiring far less ownership costs as well. Part of this is their trying to stay with proven technology longer than average as well. Actually not a bad policy in general.

Plus if you do not keep them until they are total beaters. There seems no problem to recover more retained value than any other brand. This is occurring basically because the corporation claims their profit per unit produced is lower than average. Even thought they are the worlds largest producers of cars.

Actually this is not something totally new. Toyota has not probably really equaled their early 90s quality since. At the same time I see no reduction of the manufactures willingness to back up their product. They are the worlds leader in automotive sales as well currently.

They will pull a dealers franchise if they do not follow the companies general guidelines. I have seen that occur.

The local ford dealer at the time sold out. Switching over to selling Toyota. He was reported by a buyer that they had spun the odometer back. He probably did not address the overall issue to their satisfaction. So they pulled the franchise. My guess is that he had done it so long under the earlier ford franchise he could or would not stop.

I am not really stuck on any one brand. We will continue to buy them for the wife as cost per mile overall cannot be beat in my opinion. If another brand was actually doing better or at least equal we might consider it. At this time to the best of my limited knowledge I do not think there is one.

The wife wants to replace her current one with a new one. I am going to ask her to consider driving it for another 50 thousand miles and giving to the grandson at that time. We think he will be off to medical school. Since we will cover the cost or most of that.

I do not want to ask the wife just where these smarter kids and grandchildren came from. It might be depressing to find out. That only in the case of the slower daughter of the four. Did I genetically contribute to. Although even she is far from slow. So as I mentioned I better not ask. It could be even more depressing.
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old 06-09-2018, 07:20 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Middle TN
Posts: 3,519
I have a 2012 Jetta TDI and it goes back to VW this December at 100,000 mi and before it needed anything except regular maintenance. It is a very reliable quick car that I don't have to work on. VW is giving me more than I paid for it and we drove it for 4 years expending almost $0 except for fuel.

I prefer my 84 & 85SDs except in the summer heat without AC when I have to wear some decent clothes and can't run around in cut off blue jeans and tank tops. I need to fix the AC.
__________________
85SD 240K & stopped counting. 84SD 180,000. Thinking of painting both.
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 06-09-2018, 07:46 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Phoenix Arizona. Ex Durban R.S.A.
Posts: 3,321
Quote:
Originally Posted by barry12345 View Post
The Toyota corporation.

Toyota demands very high abnormal quality standards for parts and as a result this is where the cost savings are suggested to occur. I would preffer they chose to bump up their prices more in line with Honda cars instead.
I don't dispute they now stay on the road longer than many other cars. But I've always had a laugh when people go on about Toyota quality. I guess the garbage they dumped in South Africa when I was a kid was orders of magnitude different than what they were dumping in the US and Canada at the same time.

- Peter.
__________________
81 240D stick. 316000 miles at purchase. 340000 now
2000 GMC Sonoma
Formerly...
2002 Kia Rio. Worst crap on four wheels
1981 240D 4spd stick. 389000 miles. Deceased Jan 08
1984 123 200
1979 116 280S
1972 Cadillac Sedan DeVille
1971 108 280S
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old 06-09-2018, 11:23 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Northwest Indiana
Posts: 5,964
Quote:
Originally Posted by tjts1 View Post
Prove it.

Every diesel engine after the 2015 fiasco has been tested and retested both in labs and the real world. CARB and a few other independent labs in the US and Europe buy random cars off dealer lots and test them. They're still finding cheaters in the Euro market, not so much in the US. The Chevy Colorado diesel was delayed for months because of the extra scrutiny. MB decided to pull it's diesel out of the US market when they found out it was going to tested in the real world. FCA V6 also got caught cheating the same way.

It's pathetic that Mercedes Benz resorted to cheating because it's saved them a little bit of money. Mercedes, VW and Fiat/Chrysler, BMW (in Europe only) and PSA have been caught cheating. If anybody else was cheating they wouldve been caught by now.

Something you might not realize is there are more new diesel powered cars available for sale in 2018 in the US than back in 2015 when VW first got busted. The only diesels you don't see for sale anymore are the ones that cheated.
I do not know why you have asked me to prove something that I questioned may exist. Kind of like asking me to prove that there is zero chance of life on any planet than Earth.
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old 06-09-2018, 11:30 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Posts: 18
Quote:
Originally Posted by barry12345 View Post
I might ask them for the prices next time I am near their dealership. On a lower milage buy back. Especially if I could get the modification undone and the price is right. Either the wife or myself drive past that dealership 60 miles away. About once week or more. If those are really reprogrammed buy backs they may not be selling well. I do not think they were brand new ones reprogrammed. They might have been though.
We sold our '09 wagon back with 120k on it. Would have kept it if not for the fuel pump issues (5% failure rate per year, $7k in parts to repair). Got $13k for it and went for a used gas Subaru.

Trust me, all but maybe the last couple years cars are headed for the crusher. Part of the buyback "consent agreement" with the us government was that they not be resold in the US or other country unless they met US specs. That way, they couldn't be trucked south and resold...

With the warranty required, emissions upgrades, and legal exposure, it can't be financially viable to retrofit them.

All they had to do was use urea!
Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old 06-09-2018, 11:32 PM
eatont9999's Avatar
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Dallas, TX
Posts: 1,948
Emissions standards in the US are a farce. Follow the money because that is all it is about.

No point in buying a new Diesel these days. The main selling point for me is reliability and with all this emissions crap on them, that's gone. No to mention the added maintenance and complexity.
__________________
1991 F250 super-cab 7.3 IDI. (rebuilt by me) Banks Sidewinder turbo, hydroboost brakes, new IP and injectors.
2003 S430 - 107K
1983 300SD - Tanoshii - mostly restored ~400K+.
1983 300SD - Good interior. Engine finally tamed ~250K.
Monark Nozzle Install Video - http://tinyurl.com/ptd2tge
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On




All times are GMT -4. The time now is 11:01 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0
Copyright 2018 Pelican Parts, LLC - Posts may be archived for display on the Peach Parts or Pelican Parts Website -    DMCA Registered Agent Contact Page