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  #76  
Old 12-14-2018, 07:58 AM
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to me empty real estate,trunk,roof,and hoods,why not solar cells

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  #77  
Old 12-14-2018, 08:33 AM
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Do what?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mxfrank View Post
You could run a Diesel on natural gas...
Wouldn't that by definition be a gas fueled engine?
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  #78  
Old 12-14-2018, 08:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Clemson88 View Post
Wouldn't that by definition be a gas fueled engine?

The point, as addressed by Mxfrank, is that irrespective of fuel type/source, the distinction is between compression ignition and spark ignition.
"The Wine Train", in the Napa Valley of California, is powered by a compression ignition ("Diesel") engine fueled by CNG.
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  #79  
Old 12-14-2018, 09:17 AM
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It has been a while since I have thought about these issues, but I am pretty sure that when a diesel manufacturer modifies one of their engines to run on natural gas, they also have to add spark ignition. At least this is how it used to be 10 years ago. Perhaps things have changed in the last decade.

On a different issue, peak sunlight (noon, clear day, etc. etc. etc.) shines about 1000 watts per square meter on a horizontal surface. A car might have an upward facing surface of 10 square meters. So maximum sunlight power would be 10 kW (a very low power for a car). Realistic (but high) solar panel efficiencies are 20%, giving us 2 kW to power our car. Best theoretical solar panel efficiencies are around 50%, so that still only gives us 5 kW. Regardless, solar power is not going to solve our motive power needs easily.
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  #80  
Old 12-14-2018, 10:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Father Of Giants View Post
Once electric cars cost come down to that of entry level vehicle such as a Civic, it's game over or is it?

Now that I think about it, internal combustion engines WILL still have a place, developing countries such as the Philippines, India etc will not be able to support electric cars imo.
This is kind of already happening on a smaller scale with outdoor power equipment and other cordless tools - battery electric equipment is becoming more and more popular. For many common tools for the average homeowner, a gas powered tool will now be a downgrade. Love my battery electric mower, string trimmer, leaf blower, and chainsaw.

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Originally Posted by 75Sv1 View Post
I didn't read nor analyze the articles data. I'd still factor in the efficiencies to 'transport' both. Electricity does have an efficiency rate of some sort as to crossing wires and also transformed from ???V-3Phase to 220V-1phase. The demand on the grid is a fair concern.
I do own a Volt. As to performance, its between a compact and a mid-size.
Grid transport efficiency is something like 95%. There are gains to be made, but how much is the power company willing to spend to get that up to 95.5%? Either way, efficiency is pretty high.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shortsguy1 View Post
It has been a while since I have thought about these issues, but I am pretty sure that when a diesel manufacturer modifies one of their engines to run on natural gas, they also have to add spark ignition. At least this is how it used to be 10 years ago. Perhaps things have changed in the last decade.
I've also read about a pilot injection of a teensy bit of diesel that ignites in the normal way, that will then ignite the main CNG fuel charge.
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  #81  
Old 12-14-2018, 10:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shortsguy1 View Post
It has been a while since I have thought about these issues, but I am pretty sure that when a diesel manufacturer modifies one of their engines to run on natural gas, they also have to add spark ignition. At least this is how it used to be 10 years ago. Perhaps things have changed in the last decade.

On a different issue, peak sunlight (noon, clear day, etc. etc. etc.) shines about 1000 watts per square meter on a horizontal surface. A car might have an upward facing surface of 10 square meters. So maximum sunlight power would be 10 kW (a very low power for a car). Realistic (but high) solar panel efficiencies are 20%, giving us 2 kW to power our car. Best theoretical solar panel efficiencies are around 50%, so that still only gives us 5 kW. Regardless, solar power is not going to solve our motive power needs easily.
I have seen these twin fueled engines, the CNG is decompressed right before the engine, and is used as a carburant to assist in the diesel ignition, at the same time the diesel fuel load is reduced in the engine - you get lower fuel cost (where CNG is cheaper than diesel - but its a compounded problem as CNG is not dense enough and requires extremely heavy tanks to store on the vehicle)

There is no spark system to ignite it - its starts purely on diesel fuel and CNG is added once the combustion chambers are hot enough to fire smoothly.

On manufacturer level - its an entirely different situation. They have the tooling to design and modify anything - e.g. the old toyota S series engines (camry etc.) have a diesel twin called the C series engines, also used in camrys, corollas and some small SUVs - the cylinder heads are unique, as the C series is indirect fired diesel from a VE type pump, while the S also has a 3SGTE engine (which requires no introduction as its a beast of its own league)

anyway - I think this electric fantasy is still a bit far ahead because more than 80% of the world where cars are used dont have any regulations for emmissions and electricity is extremely expensive and in scarce supply too - in simple sense, it would be extremely expensive to top up an electric vehicle if your energy cost is about 50c/kwh on grid and 100c/kwh on diesel genny.

in such countries, they keep on using old obsolete cars which have next to none or really poor emmissions gear on them. A PCV at max nothing more.
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  #82  
Old 12-14-2018, 11:19 AM
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https://www.cnn.com/2018/12/13/business/electric-cars-charge-bmw-porsche/index.html

As for efficiency, there is also the efficiency of the charger itself. I'm just saying it needs to be 'total input vs total output'. The plus size for electrics is that you move the pollution outside of the city. To some extent that is the lure of natural gas engines. They also do not have the range etc. Solar recharge probably has a way to go. Still, if the vehicle sits 4 to 8 hours, how much charge in that time? Also, charging electrics off peak hours?
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  #83  
Old 12-15-2018, 11:35 PM
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Battery exchange stations could work. Still sidesteps efficiency measuring but would get around range issues.
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  #84  
Old 12-16-2018, 12:15 AM
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Nearly a dozen(?) new battery electric vehicles available on the market today, in the USA anyway? ALL large automakers are working on EVs. This is more than a fantasy or a fad.

The range argument is dead. EV's are available which will go 300 miles on a charge. I've driven farther than that in one day twice in my life. I know some people do so all the time, but those people are definitely exceptions and not the rule. The average American commute is 32 miles per day, 12k miles per year. This would easily be handled by an EV and could replace billions of IC powered miles driven per year.

The "long tailpipe" argument is dead. Even burning exactly the same fuel as a car, a utility level steam plant with waste heat capturing and cogeneration can easily be well over 90% efficient. Things are getting better but the average IC engine is still only ~30% efficient. Utility level power plants also have effectively no limit on size or weight of their emissions equipment, because they don't have to haul that equipment around with them all the time. An EV, even when ultimately powered by coal, is far more efficient and cleaner than an IC powered car.

All the above is moot. That's not why people will switch. It's not why I'll switch. I'll switch because I'm LAZY. I don't like oil changes or spark plugs or timing belts or coolant flushes. I don't like stopping at gas stations. If I can get home, plug in my car the same way I plug in my cellphone, I'd be thrilled.

My "winterization" procedure for my battery electric outdoor power equipment is to pop out the battery. Done. My de-winterization procedure is.........pop the battery back in. Done. I want that level of I-don't-have-to-care-anymore for my car.

What's stopping me is cost. Even with the EV subsidies(which I'm not a supporter of), an EV that would handle my needs would cost enough above a comparable gas car to buy 140k miles worth of gas.

Nope, ain't doing it yet. I'll pay a slight premium to be a lazy ass(did for my electric OPE), but not that much.
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  #85  
Old 12-16-2018, 12:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OM617YOTA View Post
I want that level of I-don't-have-to-care-anymore for my car.
EVs may not be totally trouble free. There will still be a lot of electrical circuits. Not just for the drive, but also for the computer controls. And for driver-assist features. Sort of like a PC on wheels!

A friend bought a smart EV. After owning it just a short time, it started giving problems. At times it would just not run. Then an hour later it would. Was able to get it to dealer and had to leave it there. They couldn't find out what was wrong with it. No experience with EVs yet. They had to get Mercedes involved. They decided that changing a major wiring harness would solve problem. It did, but dealer had car for 8 or 9 weeks. Apparently harness came from France and for some reason, harnesses are all different. They had to manufacture one for the specific car.

Not a good experience for a first time Mercedes EV owner! But car now seems to be running OK.
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  #86  
Old 12-16-2018, 12:24 PM
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Soon, all we'll only have to worry about brakes, suspension, steering, tires, and wheel bearings.

The average blow Joe will probably just do brakes and ride on blown out suspension and steering.

In a way EV's are far more "beatable"
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  #87  
Old 12-16-2018, 12:44 PM
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Well I just got back into the diesel game yesterday, so hopefully no drastic action anytime soon....
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  #88  
Old 12-16-2018, 12:45 PM
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Post Electric Vehicles

Don't forget that unless modified, electrics tend to have full power at any speed meaning they can accelerate *very* quickly .

I don't care for them but once they crack the battery nut our ICE's are passe' .
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  #89  
Old 12-16-2018, 12:52 PM
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shame,just nasty fuels causing this mess.
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  #90  
Old 12-16-2018, 01:12 PM
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Post Causes Of Pollution

Our ICE vehicles don't produce 1/10th of the loose manufacturing pollution .

You're old enough to remember Los Angeles when the smog was choking and one couldn't see the mountains 12 miles away more often that not .

Our local manufacturing base is now -gone- and ICE vehicles are much cleaner too but there's still boats and lots of other causes, don't blame it all on personal vehicles, that's not correct .

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