so..how long before diesels are outlawed? - Page 8 - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

Zulfiqar · #**106** 12-18-2018, 12:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Graham

???? I thought reason for EVs was to reduce emissions

true, it will be a zero emmissions gridlock

Mxfrank · #**107** 12-18-2018, 12:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zulfiqar

The dieselgate cars are only illegal in countries with the stricter standards, they are perfectly ok in places where no such regulations exist. Perfectly good business to sell them there.

now to compound this, problem of some countries everloving green issues - air doesnt need a passport to blow around, one or twenty countries going EV will not affect much of the environment because the rest 80% or so countries still dont have pollution regulations. You will still have global warming and air quality issues regardless.

Except that the terms of VW's settlement preclude resale or export of unremediated vehicles. The cars are going to be broken.

80% of tailpipe emissions is produced by the developed countries.

OM617YOTA · #**108** 12-18-2018, 01:12 PM

I'm less concerned about the environmental side of things. Not saying have tire fires and pour used motor oil in streams on purpose, but I'm going to be driving something for work and play either way.

I'll be switching to an EV out of sheer laziness.

OM617YOTA · #**109** 12-18-2018, 01:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mxfrank

Except that the terms of VW's settlement preclude resale or export of unremediated vehicles. The cars are going to be broken.

80% of tailpipe emissions is produced by the developed countries.

My understanding was that all the emissions equipment was present, it was just programmed not to be used except under certain circumstances, right?

Is the issue hard-programmed, requiring a new ECU? Or is it something a single technician with a tablet and the right cord and program could fix in a few minutes?

tjts1 · #**110** 12-18-2018, 01:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mxfrank

Except that the terms of VW's settlement preclude resale or export of unremediated vehicles. The cars are going to be broken.

Good.

Quote:

Originally Posted by OM617YOTA

My understanding was that all the emissions equipment was present, it was just programmed not to be used except under certain circumstances, right?

Is the issue hard-programmed, requiring a new ECU? Or is it something a single technician with a tablet and the right cord and program could fix in a few minutes?

There is no pure software fix without increasing fuel consumption and reducing power. That was their motivation for cheating in the first place. At that price point without the use of DEF an emissions compliant version of their diesel engine would've had 80hp and gotten 20mpg. So instead of doing the right thing and realizing that there's no point in building an emissions compliant $24k diesel car, they decided to cheat.

JimFreeh · #**111** 12-18-2018, 03:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mxfrank

Early adopters always suffer for the cause (thanks for that.)

EVs should require far less brake maintenance, since as much stopping force as possible is developed from regenerative braking.

Case in point:

My sister in law is hard on cars.....

She was driving a 2000 something Tahoe, which my bro traded in on s hybrid Tahoe, same body style as the previous.

He told me that he was putting new brakes on her previous Suburbans and Tahoes at 20k mile intervals or less.

The hybrid Tahoe didn't didn't require any brake service until 80k miles.

I've yet to see any change in her driving habits.

Jim

OM617YOTA · #**112** 12-18-2018, 04:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tjts1

Good.

There is no pure software fix without increasing fuel consumption and reducing power. That was their motivation for cheating in the first place. At that price point without the use of DEF an emissions compliant version of their diesel engine would've had 80hp and gotten 20mpg. So instead of doing the right thing and realizing that there's no point in building an emissions compliant $24k diesel car, they decided to cheat.

VW diesels do use DEF. The info I'm seeing is that the fixed cars are still quite zippy and low 40's MPG. Plenty competitive w/ other models.

Most people will just re-defeat the emissions systems with a delete and tune anyway. I would.

pawoSD · #**113** 12-19-2018, 11:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OM617YOTA

VW diesels do use DEF. The info I'm seeing is that the fixed cars are still quite zippy and low 40's MPG. Plenty competitive w/ other models.

Most people will just re-defeat the emissions systems with a delete and tune anyway. I would.

They don't all use DEF...Jetta and golf models pre 2015 did not. The Passat's do.

Deleting the emissions system is a federal crime. Just sayin....

vwnate1 · #**114** 12-19-2018, 12:08 PM

Don't confuse the discussion with FACTS please

.

OM617YOTA · #**115** 12-19-2018, 12:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pawoSD

They don't all use DEF...Jetta and golf models pre 2015 did not. The Passat's do.

Deleting the emissions system is a federal crime. Just sayin....

Got you, didn't know some don't use DEF, I should have done more research. By all means, add the DEF if that's what it takes to meet emissions.

Well aware defeating emissions systems is a crime.

Graham · #**116** 12-19-2018, 08:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mxfrank

Except that the terms of VW's settlement preclude resale or export of unremediated vehicles. The cars are going to be broken.

I took Zulfigar's post to mean 'diesegate type cars' and in that context he is correct.

In fact, many, maybe even most of the diesels that meet euro or NA emission standards are not suited for countries where they do not have ULSD.

Automakers that serve these countries have to sell diesels that are more like our pre-USLD diesels. Even if countries have USLD available, it is often only in major centers and there may not be emission standards in place anyway.

This link talks about the dumping of used vehicles and even sub standard diesel fuel, in Africa: https://www.unenvironment.org/news-and-stories/story/exporting-pollution-dumping-dirty-fuels-and-vehicles-africa

barry12345 · #**117** 12-19-2018, 11:50 PM

Generally with no new diesel car sales. They will probably just be allowed to phase out with milage and accidents. Plus the cost of repairs and frequency to keep them running is becoming too high.

Unless the planet does something that is really tied to global warming of a serious nature first. To me the fact that 400 to 600 million gallons of fossil fuel a day is burnt in north America alone. Has to have some effect on the environment. It cannot be helping it.

For the average person about 90 percent of use is in local trips with their vehicles. On this basis alone I can see the electric car. Keeping a fossil fuel car for long trips or using public transit forms for the other ten percent of trips should work.

We just assume we can guesstimate the future. It seldom plays out quite like we suspect it will. For example will the money and the will be there to build the required infustructure and nuclear power plants for the electrical loading? At least two nuclear plants have gone up already destroying one country for all practical purposes and damaging another very large one. Most things have limits in reality. Going beyond them is never the better ideal.

Then there is the very serious issue of corporate structures. Under our current system. Do you think we will be able to buy electricity for cars at our current rates? My guess is it will cost a high premium to pay for the new electrical infustructure. We are talking about a mass increase in electrical current being made available. To service a high percentage of electric cars.

This is why I think the head of General Motors was lying essentially. They would be stupid to base their survival on the electric car totally. It smelled like more of the typical wall street demanding them to get their profit margins further up. Have CEOs today just become totally stooges for wall street?

My take is General motors purchased 14 billion dollars of their stock back last year and declared a profit of eight billion as well. Yet it still is not enough for wall street? They want north American GM production to go elsewhere?

I think GM would have built better cars if they had not been forced to increase their margins over the last decade by reduction in the quality of their product. I have real issues with the destructive power of wall street for their own short term gains. Plus their function as being the primary one way transfer of wealth conduit. Seriously inhibiting redistribution.

Graham · #**118** 12-20-2018, 09:52 AM

Good post Barry!

Stretch · #**119** 12-20-2018, 10:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vwnate1

Don't confuse the discussion with FACTS please

.

Whilst I'm interested to hear opinions on "how it should be" the point that seems to be missed is that "reality" or "how it is" has virtually no influence on the "feelings" of the people making the policies

The policy makers will always go after the easiest to deal with group of users whether they are going to make a big difference to the problem or not.

dlssmith · #**120** 12-21-2018, 12:42 AM

I heard a while back that around half of the diesel in the US is used to pump water. Ok with electrics in cars, kind of looking forward to it. But industrial? Not a big likelihood that the IC engine is out any time soon. Barring a significant improvement in battery energy transfer tech...