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  #1  
Old 01-22-2019, 08:34 PM
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Gooched up timing chain swap

Now it's my time to screw something up. Hopefully now to bad but i'm currently scratching my head trying to get it figured out.

Finally got everything in place to tackle the timing chain swap
from my earlier thread
TimingChain,Lifters,Injectors and GlowPlugs Today!

Had my new chain. Master links and the crimp tool ready. Even had a tool that was supposed to hold the chain in place making mistakes far less likely but it ended up being for om61x engines. It would not fit on mine.

With only to wife to lend a helping hand to guide the chain in i decided to go ahead with it.

Ok' i'll try to keep this brief...

-got everything situated ready to roll the chain in

-started off, me turning the engine and wife keeping hands on the chain keeping engagement with the cam sprocket

-Hand slipped, chain lost engagement with cam sprocket and "jumped forward" into the cavity headed towards the IP side

-pulled the chain back out and continued rolling it in

-got it all the way back around and ends temporarily linked together

- timing marks were bad off, when the crank was hitting on TDC the mark on the cam were probably about 13mm off target, when the marks on the cam where together the crank was about 20 degrees off TDC.

-SO, i Stopped with the crank on TDC undid the temporary link of the chain and moved the cam by itself to make the marks line up and put the link back in

- rotated the engine several times by hand. every time the marks come around its all hitting together on TDC

So i tried it. No start, No chug, NO puffs... nothing. not even trying to fire.

I think my injection timing is off somehow by the chain jumping down the hole and pulling it out again.

Got a RIV locking tool, and a IP oring on the way. Currently driving the blues mobile and trying to increase my understanding in hopes of salvaging a victory on this one.

i would greatly any and all input on this situation from you all.

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  #2  
Old 01-22-2019, 09:00 PM
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If it ran before you took it apart and you didn't open fuel lines that would allow air to get in; then yes, the injection pump timing jumped and is out of sync. Not a big deal other than the pump will need to be removed to get it back in time.

Good luck!!!
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  #3  
Old 01-22-2019, 09:20 PM
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That is right. Ran like a scalded dog. it was hard for me to bite the bullet and go for this job feeling the "ain't broke don't fix it" thing. Old chain did have 4 degrees of stretch.

Ok, I'm thinking at this point that the cam and crank timing are right. Like i said, every time the marks come around they're all spot on.

So, i got the IP lock tool and the oring on the way. been watching this video
https://youtu.be/2DHD6UoALto

Ge the crank set to the right spot, Pull the pump, Lock it in at the start of delivery and sick it back in.

sound about right?
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  #4  
Old 01-22-2019, 10:40 PM
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Chains break I've seen it, replacing them as maintenance is a good call.

Before removing the pump, clean all the fuel connections and scribe the pump adjustment/rotational position as it relates to the block. Zero the crank and camshaft, pull the pump, line up the index mark on the front of the pump, lock the pump, reinstall the pump, remove the locking tool, align the scribe marks, bleed the fuel system and it should start.

To dial it in I'd suggest drip timing the pump or having it electronically set/timed.

Good luck!!!
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Last edited by Sugar Bear; 01-23-2019 at 12:03 AM.
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  #5  
Old 01-23-2019, 08:10 AM
Shadetree
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Back in SC upstate
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For the record, vice grips do not slip. I wrap the jaws of vice grips with electrical tape to prevent them from any damage and do a timing chain swap alone. It's slow but sure.

I've changed three, two on the 617 and one on a v8 mercedes gas engine. I had the one on the v8 slip on the right bank but it didn't get off the crank sprocket and there was no damage.

I'm not proposing to instruct anyone in such situations as you find yourself in but if it was me the front would come off that engine and I'd know for certain that the everything was copacetic.
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  #6  
Old 01-23-2019, 09:22 AM
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Good tip. In hindsight i would agree to that. Keep the vice grip holding the chain the the gear. Even if it has to be turned a small bit the moved 59 times. Or get the proper retaining tool. It’s probably not that hard to find or too expensive.

I’ve already bet that the chain is on all the guides and teeth and crimped together permanently with the tool. After turning the engine 20 times over by hand I was confident enough that the cam and the crank are in time to crank it with the fuel off. After I did that a few times I felt ok with trying to start it. That’s when I got the complete lack of combustion situation.

I would prefere to leave the front of the engine intact but I certainly wouldn’t mind the price of mind in knowing for sure where everything is at. I do have a rebuilt head, head gasket set, new head bolts and new chain guides. I’m just contemplating my ability to jump off in a much larger project right now.
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  #7  
Old 01-23-2019, 09:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sugar Bear View Post
Zero the crank and camshaft, pull the pump, line up the index mark on the front of the pump, lock the pump, reinstall the pump, remove the locking tool, align the scribe marks, bleed the fuel system and it should start.

Don't set the crank to Zero.

Set the crank to were the FSM says for IP installation. (Just from memory, I think that is 15 degrees after TDC.) Then install your locked-in-place IP.

DIY IP timing lock
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2012 S350 BlueTEC 4Matic
2007 ML 320 CDI
2007 Leisure Travel Serenity
2006 Sprinter 432k
2005 E320 CDI
1998 SLK230 (teal)
1998 SLK230 (silver)
1996 E300D 99k, 30k on WVO
Previous:
1983 240D, on WVO
1982 300D, on WVO
1983 300CD, on WVO
1986 300SDL 237k, 25k on WVO (Deerslayer)
1991 350SDL 249k, 56k on WVO - Retired to a car spa in Phoenix
1983 380 SEC w/603 diesel, 8k on WVO
1996 E300D 351k, 177k on WVO
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  #8  
Old 01-23-2019, 11:46 AM
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GregMN, Thanks good catch! I remembered it wrong its been over twenty years... confirm the degree the crank needs to be set at (not zero), then install the pump.

Good luck!!!
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  #9  
Old 01-23-2019, 02:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phillytwotank View Post
Now it's my time to screw something up. Hopefully now to bad but i'm currently scratching my head trying to get it figured out.

-Hand slipped, chain lost engagement with cam sprocket and "jumped forward" into the cavity headed towards the IP side


i would greatly any and all input on this situation from you all.
The "jump" is caused by the timing device and the vacuum pump. The pump's roller rides on the timing device's cam, the roller arm of the pump is spring loaded as it rides up and down the cam's wave profile. That interaction between those parts takes place with the spring exerting force against the cam. At the point where the roller is on the "down slope of the cam's wave it is exerting pressure that will force the timing device to rotate until the roller settles into a valley of the cam's wave profile. That's why it gives that sharp jerk to the chain.

For anybody reading this thread they will know to remove the vacuum pump on the OM60X series engines before the R&R of the timing chain. The jump happens so fast and with such force it's done it's thing before you know it, so it's difficult to avoid it happening.

Good luck on getting things back where they belong.

Seeing you'll have the pump off there is no better time to replace the bottom gasket! When you reinstall the IP if you lube the O-ring you'll avoid any problem with it sticking and breaking if and when you have to adjust the rotation to get it timed correctly.
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  #10  
Old 01-23-2019, 03:27 PM
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I will have to do some research to figure out where to set the crank timing for pump installation. It is also covered in this video but for a different engine. same concept
https://youtu.be/WpAxhJDrYC4

I have a IP to crankcase oring on the way but didn't think about getting any other gaskets for the IP. probably too late at this point to get them before this weekend. unless anybody knows off hand the PN for those??

I realize that now about the vacuum pump. Yes, if you are holding the chain by hand or using vice grips then definitely remove the vacuum pump first.

If you're following FSM section 05- 285 it does not instruct to remove the vacuum pump to R&R the chain. that is because If you have tool 602 589 01 40 00 then removing the pump is not necessary as there is no way for the chain to loose engagement with the timing gear while the tool is in place.
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former members
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  #11  
Old 01-27-2019, 09:01 AM
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Made great progress yesterday. Got the IP lock tool in the mail and was able to verify that the pump timing was indeed off. Timing wing inside the hole was no where to be found at 14 degrees atdc.

Got the pump pulled out and the tool locked in on the wing. Ready to start putting everything back together.

Really Debating the urge to do things while I’m in there. Now that I’ve got that side of the engine stripped down as bare as I ever have. I can see the origin of a couple oil leaks that have troubled me since I’ve had this car. Also, I’m so so close to changing the head I’m really tempted.
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former members
1984 300D "Blues Mobile"

1978 300CD "El Toro"
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  #12  
Old 01-27-2019, 09:26 PM
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usually when i get to this stage in a repair, its 'haven't i learned enough?'

i totally get the temptation tho

good luck & keep at it
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  #13  
Old 01-28-2019, 02:27 PM
Diesel Preferred
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phillytwotank View Post
Made great progress yesterday. Got the IP lock tool in the mail and was able to verify that the pump timing was indeed off. Timing wing inside the hole was no where to be found at 14 degrees atdc.

Got the pump pulled out and the tool locked in on the wing. Ready to start putting everything back together.

How far off was the pump timing? How much did you have to rotate the IP to get the locking tool in place? My understanding of the OM603 timing chain / injection pump timing gear relationship is that there is a pin inserted in the front engine cover (or into the block behind the cover, I don't recall which just now) that creates basically zero room for the chain to jump or move off of the IP timing gear. In other words, this pin traps the chain against the gear, so that what you think happened is not possible.
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  #14  
Old 02-13-2019, 09:05 PM
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It was 180 degrees off. Long story. I do realize now exactly how I got into this predicament.
Main takeaway is... pull your vacuum pump if you’re gonna try to roll the chain in by hand without the chain holder tool.

Everything is cool now. Been in the road again for a couple weeks.
I feel like the timing probably could still use a little tweaking.
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former members
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1978 300CD "El Toro"
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  #15  
Old 02-13-2019, 10:04 PM
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Great job and you learned a lot.

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