OM616 timing chain noise? - Page 2 - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

glowplugged · #16 10-27-2020, 07:25 PM

the oil pump spacer bushing wears
gears stop mesing properly
check out the price of the gear set, then decide of replacing the bushing is important.
My timing device bushing had almost no wear
yours must be inspected

cheers
Stan

240D.Bill · #17 10-28-2020, 03:36 AM

We might be talking about two different jobs. I thought you were talking about the intermediate shaft bushing but i believe I think I understand that you are referring to the helical gear shaft for the oil pump.

240D.Bill · #18 10-28-2020, 04:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by glowplugged

the oil pump spacer bushing wears
gears stop mesing properly
check out the price of the gear set, then decide of replacing the bushing is important.
My timing device bushing had almost no wear
yours must be inspected

cheers
Stan

Yeah I tried that tonight. The cap comes off easy enough but unless I remove the ps pump, filter housing, and mount I’m going to need a very expensive custom 15mm Wrench or socket to remove the retaining bolt. It on the list. Thanks again.

240D.Bill · #19 10-29-2020, 01:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by glowplugged

the oil pump spacer bushing wears
gears stop mesing properly
check out the price of the gear set, then decide of replacing the bushing is important.
My timing device bushing had almost no wear
yours must be inspected

cheers
Stan

I finally got it removed. I almost wished I hadn’t. The helical gear shaft is chipped and well worn. From what I can see if the intermediate shaft, it’s not surprisingly pretty worn as well. The thrust bushing doesn’t look bad but there is a little play with the shaft inserted. I don’t know the tolerance but it must have been less than what I have.
According to the FSM, pointed(needle nose?) pliers are used to remove the bearing bushing. No way! That bushing is snug. We’re you able to dislodge it?

240D.Bill · #20 10-30-2020, 02:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by glowplugged

and was not able to resolve the stray noise issue.
New chain installed with proper peening tool
replaced timing device bushing with NEW part
Back in engine today, replacing front seal
Apparently there are varying opinions circulating about ID of spacer- mine came off with surprised fingers, rotated around crankshaft like a pinball machine decorative device, it served not a lot more than for entertainment purposes
Entire end of crankshaft looked factory new, dowel pin holes perfect, crankshaft bolt hole FSM picture-perfect
The only sensible thing to do i completetly overhaul the front of the engine. Most of the cars are approaching 400,000,000,000 miles and the FSM was not expected to cover the cumulative wear of all components and the results of such wear.
Replace timing chain and all sprockets
We all like to talk about the timing chain replacement as if it cures all. It doesn't. All of the sprockets the timing chain rides on ALSO get badly worn; unfortunately this also includes the TIMING DEVICE SPROCKET being a integral part of the system. New chain, new guides, new sprockets and tensioner all the way around will restore the front of the engine to as-built specs, and will result in no noise.
Some hotshot metalurgist out there may be able to CNC and heat treat a replacement timing device sprocket ring because new replacement timing devices were costly years ago and i don't know if they are even still available from Mercedes. When the last one is sold out of the Alpen warehouse we are all facing the same destination.
The timing device is another trillion-mile part that is dead simple and wear-resistant by design. 4 years ago Mercedes still sold the coiled counterweight springs which get side wear like the tensioner spring.
The design of a bolt-on ring sprocket gear would correct the TD sprocket problem.
I ridden in new cars and dislike the senstion of the entire body flexing, something that screams cheap. Not that we get cheap cars, but it is as if quality has been completely engineered away from them and they are designed to appeal to our strangley insipid sense of what a good car should be. Shouldn't be too long before we can play VR games with out cars.
My money and my time is on the W123 design. The return is more than the time and money spent. If you do a half-way job, expect to return to the job as a rescue mission later.
Just do it; do all you can do. These cars respond well to proper repairs and will reward work well done.
I will look up the timing device bushing #. If I recall correctly mine arrived from Greece via ebay. I actually got 2 new ones for less than the price of one. I am probably good for another 75,000,000,000 miles. When you rmove it you can FINALLY accurately measure the bushing wear. If you are in there, REPLACE IT. Taking out the accumulative slack will make your engine run quiet.
Yesterday I installed the seal properly. For wahtever reason the upper oil pan DOES NOT align with the block, it is set back about .020". Today the lower part of the seal gets acetone and sealant and it will not be touched further for 24 hours.

When I installed the spacer I read it should be heated to 250° and slipped on. Ha. Got it to 276° with soak time and it stopped right on the crank snout so I pulled it right back off like poision and back into the toaster oven to 296° soak time and it went right on, straight back to Timbukthree. (if it gets to Timbukthree, you know you have made it to Timbuktu).
Not a good idea to drive this on as you will pare away at the intended clearance of the parts. Maybe just enough to let it ride loose, or loosen with time. The only advantage to this is the continuous external block washing from the profuse oil leak.

I've been in here. If you have any questions I can answer them. I will also tell you if I do not know.

Cheers,

Stan

Stan,

You stated that the noise is still present. In regards to the timing device(td), when you replaced the td bearing bushing did you replace the bearing bushing it rides on as well? The latter appears to be on the intermediate shaft which has an additional two bearing bushings and the helical gear shaft with its two bushings. Essentially we are talking about replacing a total of 7 bushings for gearset and timing device. New parts are cost prohibitive and yet the thought of hunting down all the version specific used ones is daunting.
My gear set is probably in need of replacement but hunting down the correct one is proving to be a challenge as there are at least two if not four versions. Two have a nut that secures the td, one of which is a poly-lock nut and the other a standard hex which I have. Later versions have a bolt, one of which is hollow that was fitted to the 300D(123.130) as well as 240Ds(123.102/103/105/183) along with a double diaphragm vacuum pump(no mention of the piston type). The confusing part for me is that the diagrams in the FSM(05-412) do not indicate or specify but presumably the td retaining nut secures to a shaft that is threaded and has no oil passages unlike mine.
The FSM has done little but confuse me and make parts purchasing more difficult as there are three different versions of every single part but thats my problem to sort out and I will.

n3nyong · #21 01-05-2021, 07:05 PM

...bringing this back from the dead...

So, was the noise eliminated?

I have a peculiar sound in a new-to-me ‘81 240d with only 173k.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

glowplugged · #22 01-06-2021, 11:22 AM

Well
I have a hole in my upper pan that was worn by the timing chain. Current hole looks pushed out a bit.
When I installed the chain I couldn't find anything or anyone mentioning number of links on left side of crankshaft. Excessive slack on opposite side.
As I was going after the leak I found a curious video by Kent showing the same thing having happened to a 240D of his. The fix was thoroughly clean the area on the upper oil pan and use long-set JB Weld.
He also mentioned a bad chain tensioner unit and apparently replaced it before doing the JB Weld.

I replaced the timing chain with all new guides and chain tensioner. Apparently the "new" Febi tensioner wasn't "new" as this noise was immediately after the repair and has been there since.
Replacing the tensioner should bring it tight again and keep the JB Weld intact.
I will also replace the lower oil pan as it had a nice dent in the bottom breaking away the then-hardened rubber intake. I tapped it out with the hammer and vise, but there is no substitute for a factory formed oil pan.

So I would prepare to replace the front crankshaft seal, this is necessary to get in and see the leak if the chain has been rubbing a hole in the upper oil pan. Long-cure JB Weld is preferred as for one thing it remains rather "un-set" for a longer time giving it a chance to make contact with the pre-cleaned area and keeping the repair intact.
Some day THIS repair will be removed and intead the hole in the aluminum will be welded shut.

Cheers!

Stan

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