83 240D Howling at startup. - Page 2 - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

vwnate1 · #16 09-04-2019, 07:06 PM

WELCOME TO THE ASYLUM ! .

It's fairly simple to take the starter apart, clean and lubricate it they rarely need more than new brushes and maybe the commutator end bushing, *do* order in the brushes and replace them whist it's all apart .

These are not speedy cars but amazingly good to drive and wonderful in Winter, you'll see see .

I love my '82 240D above my Coupe and gray market wagon .

4/10 ~ ? LEO ? .

speednjay · #17 09-04-2019, 07:54 PM

My w210 kinda did something like this. Turned out to be the exhaust manifold bolts backing out just enough to have a gap when cold then sealed when warmed up.

123boy · #18 09-04-2019, 11:22 PM

Thanks, vwnate and speednjay. Appreciate the insight. Gonna go after the starter tomorrow and will check the exhaust manifold bolts, while I'm at it!
Really looking forward to seeing how this car behaves in the coming winter!

Shern · #19 09-05-2019, 01:58 PM

Nate, or anyone else, have the part numbers for starter brushes, commutator end bushing and any other expendables?

123boy · #20 09-09-2019, 03:57 PM

Great day for my 240D (small victory).....I seemed to have "solved" the problem of the strange howl on every startup. Thanks for guidance and input on this forum! Taking the advice of the members, here, I began to narrow it down, removed the drive belts one by one, starting the car each time, and the "noise" persisted. Next step was the starter.
That was fun and a great learning experience! Amazingly secure installation and a testament to how well made and over-engineered these cars really are. Incredibly solid mounting design!
Anyhow..got the starter on the bench and began to look it over. Actuated the starter with battery cables and it worked fine, NO NOISE :>( Didn't want to do a complete disassembly as the unit was starting the engine with no trouble and I've got some bigger fish to fry with this car. Pulled the bearing cap off the "brushes end" of the motor and it was dry as a bone in there. Put a little oil on the shaft/bearing area, cleaned out what was left of the old, dry grease, reconditioned the rubber seal, put some fresh grease in the cup and "closed her up". Ditto the other end, where the bendix gear is. Lots of red oxide colored dust on this end. Cleaned everything up, lubricated with oil. Removed the solenoid (2 of the 3 M5 fasteners that hold the solenoid together were missing) and found a bunch of "red" dust in there as well. Cleaned that out, polished the solenoid piston and bore (gently, no scratches). Put that back together (with new fasteners for solenoid) and polished ALL the grounding locations (engine, bracket, starter, nuts/washers, wire terminations, etc). There are quite a few if one considers them all!
Got it all back together, polished and clean, and now, the moment of truth.......NO NOISE on startup!! Have cycled the starter a bunch of times since and it's still nice and quiet. Working better than it did before, too. Now that I've been to school on 240D starter removal and installation, I'll get back in there (if and when need be) at some point and do a thorough overhaul.
Thanks again for all the input, suggestions and guidance from all the members who responded.
On to valve adjustment!!

vwnate1 · #21 09-09-2019, 06:24 PM

O.K. ~ I'm far from my ECHLIN (good stuff, often EOM) catalogs and I don't have any BOSCH parts catalogs but here goes :

Starter brushes : STANDARD MOTOR PRODUCTS GB2008 {#0001515914, 1515914} Intermotor; Direct OE Replacement; Package Quantity: 4 Brushes Info
(Only 3 Remaining)

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Part image
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$22.89
Add to Cart
WVE/AIRTEX/WELLS 5A1167 {#0001515914, 01001515914, FAX129} Info
(Only 2 Remaining)

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Part image
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$26.79
Add to Cart
ACDELCO E733A {#89057174} Professional Info

Commutator end bushing : STANDARD MOTOR PRODUCTS X5413 {Click Info Button for Alternate/OEM Part Numbers} Intermotor; DE Starter Bushing;Outer Diameter (O.D.) - Inches: .634";Material: Brass; Length - Inches: .627"; Inner Diameter (I.D.) - Inches: .474" Info
OE No. 0031510701; Drive End (Only 4 Remaining)

Part image
$1.98
Add to Cart
STANDARD MOTOR PRODUCTS X5436 {#0001513550, 1513550} Intermotor; Direct OE Replacement; Material: Copper Info
OE No. 0031510701; Commutator End

Part image
$2.75
Add to Cart
WVE/AIRTEX/WELLS 7D1136 {#5434B} Info
Commutator End

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Part image
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$6.63
Add to Cart
ACDELCO E1627 {#19113677} Professional Info
OE No. 0031510701; Commutator End

Solenoid : BOSCH 31035 SOLENOID Info
OEM NO=0 331 402 001

$46.79
Add to Cart
WVE/AIRTEX/WELLS 1M1181 {#0001523010, 88923057, SS851} Info
(Only 2 Remaining)

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Part image
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$68.99
Add to Cart
STANDARD MOTOR PRODUCTS SS277 {Click Info Button for Alternate/OEM Part Numbers} Intermotor Info

Drive / Bendix : STANDARD MOTOR PRODUCTS SDN305 {#0001519613, 1519613} Intermotor; Number of Gear Teeth: 9 Info

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Part image
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$50.89
Add to Cart
ACDELCO E2063 {#19113446} Professional Info

I hope this is helpful .

90 + % of the time all you needs do is take it apart clean and grease (not oil) well, replace the brushes and solenoid every time even if you think they're O.K. .

123boy · #22 09-09-2019, 07:20 PM

Another poster stated Bosch DOES NOT recommend grease, but oil. Was why I just used a little oil, quite sparingly. I'd like to get that info "sorted out", too.

123boy · #23 09-09-2019, 07:25 PM

Found the post from the member that stated "Bosch recommends oil, not grease". If you've seen other posts from this member, it's pretty obvious he "knows his stuff". It's about the 5th post in, where he's putting the armature back in.....I believe.
An OM617 starter motor is for LIFE not just for Christmas!

Diseasel300 · #24 09-09-2019, 07:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 123boy

Another poster stated Bosch DOES NOT recommend grease, but oil. Was why I just used a little oil, quite sparingly. I'd like to get that info "sorted out", too.

A bronze bushing or bearing should NEVER EVER see grease. You'll ruin it in very short order. Oil only, and non-detergent oil at that. The bearing is porous and "sweats" the oil onto the bearing surfaces. Grease will very quickly form a varnish which clogs the pores and ruins the bearing, quickly leading to squealing and seizure. Grease is for ball/roller bearings. Oil is for sintered bushings and sleeve bearings. This is universal, not specific to Bosch or starter motors by the way.

INSIDIOUS · #25 09-09-2019, 07:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 123boy

Thanks for the tips. Alternator belt is new and tight. Battery is fully charged. I'll check the starter motor bolts, but the "howl" seems to happen after the starter has "done it's thing" and is completely out of the picture, so to speak.
Odd noise for sure. I've never heard anything quite like this noise.
My worst fear is that it involves the vacuum pump. Although, that unit pulled a nice steady 20psi on the gauge when I checked it.

20? Not sure science is ready for more than atmospheric yet ...

123boy · #26 09-10-2019, 02:08 AM

Thanks diseasel, appreciate that. Are you also saying there should be NO grease in cup at the back of the starter, either? There was remnants of old grease in there when I opened it up.....

97 SL320 · #27 09-10-2019, 06:21 AM

What looked like grease was more or less brush dust and some oil that had leached out of the bushing.

Diseasel300 · #28 09-10-2019, 09:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 97 SL320

What looked like grease was more or less brush dust and some oil that had leached out of the bushing.

^^^This.^^^

Even the oil will turn to sludge with age, usually by that time, the rest of the motor is pretty tired. Electric motors used to come with oil cups that you added several drops of oil to every year. Kept lubricated, they'd last for decades running 24/7/365. Modern motors are cheap and deleted the cups with "oiled for life" bearings that usually have little more than a vapor deposit of oil in them from the factory.

vwnate1 · #29 09-10-2019, 10:41 AM

Thanl you for the detailed link .

I didn't realize they are oil lite bushings .

They're supposed to be soaked in oil .

? What oil to use ? . maybe "Zoom Spout" ? .

barry12345 · #30 09-10-2019, 11:02 AM

Some of my old Mercedes starters might even be the originals. Even if not they have been in the cars a long time. The porous bearings seem to hold enough lubricant for decades. Or if it has been dissipated the bushing material itself might stand up for quite some time unlubricated. The length of a starter cycle is not long enough to build much friction heat.

I do not suspect other than a good petroleum based medium weight viscosity oil would make much difference. I did wonder if soaking them in oil might be a good ideal before installing them though. As well. They may come partially pre soaked as well.