Parts Catalog Accessories Catalog How To Articles Tech Forums
Call Pelican Parts at 888-280-7799
Shopping Cart Cart | Project List | Order Status | Help



Go Back   PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum > Mercedes-Benz Tech Information and Support > Diesel Discussion

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 08-05-2020, 09:05 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Arkansas
Posts: 40
Time for a new timing chain?

I recently purchased a 83 300D Turbo. Ive been troubleshooting excessive white smoke with that smells almost unburned.



Tried diesel purge, etc. Then after a bit of reading on here I thought maybe timing was off.







I plan on just getting the kit from Kent, but I am curious if there are any other seals or parts I should change while I am at it.


To me it looks 5 degrees off. Here pictures to get your opinions.

https://ibb.co/1v0QQ3M
https://ibb.co/tQ6cmCp



Thanks

__________________
Current:
16 E400 4Matic
91 300E 4Matic - 2nd car
83 300D
Past:
06 E350 4Matic
87 190E 2.6 - 1st car
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 08-05-2020, 09:51 PM
Diesel911's Avatar
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Long Beach,CA
Posts: 51,042
There is a 4 degree offset Key that you could install to take that up. However, you need to do the 2mm method with a dial indicator to get a definitive reading.

Also there has been others with that approximate 5 degrees that did not have the symptoms you are having.

Note that in the manual it has that after the first 20000 mile on a new engine it is normal to have 2.5 degrees of timing chain stretch but that is using the 2mm method.

I think if you installed the offset key what you would find is that the symptoms improve slightly but it is your Fuel Injection pump timing or some other reason that is causing the white smoke.

So the offset key is a cheap and minimally invasive method of finding the actual cause of your issue.
__________________
84 300D, 82 Volvo 244Gl Diesel
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 08-06-2020, 06:22 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Arkansas
Posts: 40
I am not familiar with the 4mm offset or the 2mm method. Do you know of a write up?

I have no clue when the last time the timing chain was changed if ever. I am totally ok with replacing it if it’s risky.

Are you suggesting that I would probably have more luck just adjusting my ip timing?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
__________________
Current:
16 E400 4Matic
91 300E 4Matic - 2nd car
83 300D
Past:
06 E350 4Matic
87 190E 2.6 - 1st car
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 08-06-2020, 07:31 PM
Diesel911's Avatar
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Long Beach,CA
Posts: 51,042
Quote:
Originally Posted by m5mulli View Post
I am not familiar with the 4mm offset or the 2mm method. Do you know of a write up?

I have no clue when the last time the timing chain was changed if ever. I am totally ok with replacing it if it’s risky.

Are you suggesting that I would probably have more luck just adjusting my ip timing?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
It is one of the possible causes. I had late timing on my Volvo Diesel as I had inadverntaly got the timing late and it put out billowing clouds of white smoke that smelled like fuel. Re-timing it fixed it. It is one of the remedies that might work that is not labor intensive nor cost much.

You can look at pelican parts and they may have a picture of the offset key. It is a Woodruff type key but one side of it is staggered.

The write up would be here if there is one (the 2mm method is in there): http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/diy-links-parts-category/http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/diy-links-parts-category/

If someone would post a free online factory service manual it is in there and how to determine which key you need.
__________________
84 300D, 82 Volvo 244Gl Diesel
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 08-07-2020, 02:42 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 5,924
Rather than retime the injection pump. Just check if the current timing is good. If not do then do the retiming. It does sound like very delayed injection but there can be other causes. Possibly a turbo seal issue. You have to start somewhere.

How is the car to drive decent or sluggish. I understand if you have not owned one before you have no comparison unfortuantly.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 08-07-2020, 03:17 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Arkansas
Posts: 40
It seams relatively decent. I checked the turbo and it gets up to 8lb reading from Ting off between the intake and Alda. Alda is also not leaking.

The smoke is really only significant at startup and a little after until it gets up to temp. It does still smoke a bit when idling at op temp but you really have to be looking.

Here is my thing. Is 4.5/5 degrees of stretch enough to be worried about? Should I change the timing chain for good measure anyways? I don’t want to mess with the ip timing just to have to go back and replace the timing chain and then reset the ip again.

I have been reading on the ip timing methods. I am opting to just get the mb official tool. The rest seem to voodoo for me.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
__________________
Current:
16 E400 4Matic
91 300E 4Matic - 2nd car
83 300D
Past:
06 E350 4Matic
87 190E 2.6 - 1st car
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 08-07-2020, 11:34 PM
Diesel911's Avatar
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Long Beach,CA
Posts: 51,042
Quote:
Originally Posted by m5mulli View Post
It seams relatively decent. I checked the turbo and it gets up to 8lb reading from Ting off between the intake and Alda. Alda is also not leaking.

The smoke is really only significant at startup and a little after until it gets up to temp. It does still smoke a bit when idling at op temp but you really have to be looking.

Here is my thing. Is 4.5/5 degrees of stretch enough to be worried about? Should I change the timing chain for good measure anyways? I don’t want to mess with the ip timing just to have to go back and replace the timing chain and then reset the ip again.

I have been reading on the ip timing methods. I am opting to just get the mb official tool. The rest seem to voodoo for me.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Which tool are you speaking of?

The Manual has too many different ways to time the fuel injection pump. Some needs equipment.
The drip method needs some practice to do it.

It is difficult to explain in words what is happening. If there was an extra plunger and barrel and hold it in your hands work them you would easily understand and see what is going on is not complicated.
__________________
84 300D, 82 Volvo 244Gl Diesel
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 08-07-2020, 11:51 PM
Diesel911's Avatar
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Long Beach,CA
Posts: 51,042
I hesitate to say this. Some have told me theirs are already marked.

So I am going to say in my own case I scribed a mark across the aluminum fuel injection pump flange to the engine block as a reference point of where I started.

If you loosen the Fuel Injection Lines at the Injectors and then loosen the rear lower fuel injection support at the bottom of the fuel injection pump and the 3 front 13mm nuts on the fuel injection Pump you can rotate the top of the fuel injection pump towards the Engine Block. That advances the timing. But when you do that you only move the fuel injection pump like 1/16 of an inch off of your scribed mark.

Tighten the 3 front flange 13mm Bolts and tighten the Fuel Injection Hard lines at the Injectors and start and see if it effected the smoke when the engine is cold.

The only bad thing that can happen from this is there is a front gasket between the block and the fuel injection pump and it is possible for that to develop a seeping leak if it gets damaged.

Because you marked the block and fuel injection pump flange you can always return it to where you started.


Concerning the timing Chain. Mercedes has no spec for condemning the timing chain. There is however only I think it is 3 offset key sizes. So that give some presumptive evidence that the chain can be reused at least up to the 3rd key.

When all this was argued over in the various thread the consensus was that if using the 2mm method (the most accurate and only authorized way to check it) you reached 6 degrees some said that was the time to change the timing chain.

What causes the timing chain to break. I have not read any direct evidence it is too much stretch that caused a chain to snap. Normally what happens is part of the vacuum Pump wears out and the parts fall into the timing chain and or gears and that snaps the chain or otherwise damages the Engine. Or the timer gear bushing that controls the timer end play becomes to sloppy and that play has been know to ruin a new Vacuum Pump with the risk of the vacuum pump parts falling into the timing chain and gears.
__________________
84 300D, 82 Volvo 244Gl Diesel
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 08-09-2020, 12:33 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Arkansas
Posts: 40
My ip is already scribed. I may muster up the will to try and adjust the it. Looks like getting to those bolts is a pain.

The tool I was looking at is W601589052100. Yet I have no idea how to use it.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
__________________
Current:
16 E400 4Matic
91 300E 4Matic - 2nd car
83 300D
Past:
06 E350 4Matic
87 190E 2.6 - 1st car
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 08-09-2020, 01:34 PM
CDTurbo001's Avatar
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2017
Location: Campbellsville, KY
Posts: 289
The timing chain in the 61x series engines has no set lifespan, but regardless the lifespan is usually very long. Replacement of timing chain should be determined by visual wear on the chain and sprockets, and stretch as measured by the 2MM method. From having checked and adjusted at least a dozen engines, most of them have been between 3 and 6 degrees - the FSM gives part numbers for woodruff keys up to correct up to 10? degrees.

As diesel911 says, your symptoms will not be fixed by correcting 5* of stretch - you're getting ahead of yourself if you haven't set IP timing and had injectors tested for proper calibration and atomization. Even so, the *one* 617 I've actually replaced the chain in required another 3* compensation via an offset woodruff key to get the cam to 0. Don't replace the timing chain without also at least inspecting the roller bearing on the vacuum pump, and replacing the tensioner rail which involves disassembling the belt drive and crank pulley to get at the pin that holds it in the block.

I math'd it out once and 5 degrees stretch - if it's all in the chain and there's no wear on the sprocket teeth which won't be the case - is basically 3/8" over the entire length of the chain. .0028" per link of the chain. The timing chains on these engines very seldom break on their own - it's usually the vacuum pump bearing or some other related component that takes out the chain. So if you're going to do the chain, there's some other work that should be done to truly reset the lifetime of the system. Otherwise, just leave it together and zero out the cam with an offset key as the FSM says.
__________________
'82 300CD
"Pearl", the very first turbo diesel 123 coupe
Totaled 11/23/18, rebuild in progress.
'85 300TD, "Artemis".
'78 300D euro, "Ol' Red", mostly retired.
'85 300D, "Gandalf".
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 08-09-2020, 01:50 PM
Diesel911's Avatar
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Long Beach,CA
Posts: 51,042
Quote:
Originally Posted by m5mulli View Post
My ip is already scribed. I may muster up the will to try and adjust the it. Looks like getting to those bolts is a pain.

The tool I was looking at is W601589052100. Yet I have no idea how to use it.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I am going to give some opinion and it does not mean I am right about it. However, you seem to be rushing beyond your knowledge and or equipment.

As an example you san it looks like getting to the IP bolts would be a pain but you are speaking of changing a timing chain which is way more complicated.
Also it appears that you have not looked into how to loosen the IP bots/nuts.

I remember when I was younger how much grief I cased myself by pushing action before knowledge.

Repair Links

Fast navigation http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/diy-links-parts-category/146034-fast-navigation-do-yourself-links.html

If this site works for you will access the W123 Service Manual and your year and model are on disk 2.

W123 Service Manual

https://www.startekinfo.com/StarTek/outside/12265/?requestedDocId=12265

__________________
84 300D, 82 Volvo 244Gl Diesel
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 08-09-2020, 02:07 PM
Diesel911's Avatar
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Long Beach,CA
Posts: 51,042
Quote:
Originally Posted by m5mulli View Post
My ip is already scribed. I may muster up the will to try and adjust the it. Looks like getting to those bolts is a pain.

The tool I was looking at is W601589052100. Yet I have no idea how to use it.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
When I bought one it came with no instructions. Instructions are in the Mercedes Service Manual
The IP timing/locking pin is actually made for when you pull the Fuel Injection pump off. When you go to re-install the Fuel Injection Pump you remove a 17mm sized plug from the rear of the Fuel Injection Pump and insert the tool and orient it properly. Then you rotate the fuel injection pump in the normal direction of rotation gently which is clockwise until it locks. Then with the crankshaft damper lined up properly which is you go to top dead center on the compression stroke and than past that (rotating the engine from the front by hand clockwise) to 15 degrees after top dead center you install the fuel injection pump and the timing locking pin keeps the pump fro rotating so that when you stick it in it is timed.

Read this first:
Using the Timing Locking Pin to time the Engine Post number 24 and 25 my posts
http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/diesel-discussion/376354-idle-smoke-300sdl-2.html#post3605500
__________________
84 300D, 82 Volvo 244Gl Diesel
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 08-14-2020, 06:45 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Arkansas
Posts: 40
Ok, that seams simple enough. If my timing chain has stretched say 5 degrees Would using this method change anything? Or would I have to use something like the drip method to compensate for the stretch with would not be accounted for with the lock pin?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
__________________
Current:
16 E400 4Matic
91 300E 4Matic - 2nd car
83 300D
Past:
06 E350 4Matic
87 190E 2.6 - 1st car
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 08-14-2020, 07:48 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: London, United Kingdom
Posts: 634
I would not touch the chain at this stage. I would however:

1) Rebuild your lift pump and replace a potentially leaking hand primer pump

2) Rebuild your injectors

(Greazzer on these forums does both these services to an incredibly high standard).

3) Ensure your pump timing is perfect.

4) Adjust your valves

Report back if the issue persists.
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 08-14-2020, 10:13 PM
Diesel911's Avatar
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Long Beach,CA
Posts: 51,042
Quote:
Originally Posted by m5mulli View Post
Ok, that seams simple enough. If my timing chain has stretched say 5 degrees Would using this method change anything? Or would I have to use something like the drip method to compensate for the stretch with would not be accounted for with the lock pin?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Sort of as you said. The Timing Chain stretching changes the Valve Timing/Camshaft Timing and if the Fuel Injection pump has never been re-timed the Fuel Injection Pump likely has late timing.

As you said you can correct the Fuel Injection Pump timing by re-timing it. But, you Camshaft timing/Valve Timing will remain the same.

I have the Dial Indicator Setup but have never done the 2mm Method. I lined up the marks as you did and there was not enough stretch with that rough check to bother with so I have never checked on it since that time.

I had dial indictor sets previous to Mercedes ownership. You are going to need it if you ever do the rear wheel bearings as labor intensive and needs to be done right the first time.

__________________
84 300D, 82 Volvo 244Gl Diesel
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On




All times are GMT -4. The time now is 12:35 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0
Copyright 2024 Pelican Parts, LLC - Posts may be archived for display on the Peach Parts or Pelican Parts Website -    DMCA Registered Agent Contact Page