PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum (http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/)
-   Diesel Discussion (http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/diesel-discussion/)
-   -   New Timing chain, now wont start (http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/diesel-discussion/407896-new-timing-chain-now-wont-start.html)

HughO 09-03-2020 01:11 PM

New Timing chain, now wont start
 
I have a toughie, folks. My project car is a 1981 240 D in which previous owner replaced the timing chain and then it wouldn't start. Only 100K miles. He said probably bad glow plugs. NOT! So far I have checked cam timing, adjusted valves(WAY OUT!) , bled the system(lots of air bubbles top of filter, and cracked the injector lines. NO fuel coming to injector lines! He also had removed the vacuum pump(WHY?) which I replaced. The vacuum pump is driven by the timing chain and I assume is keyed to the injection pump. I can see the vacuum pump turning when I manually rotate the engine. Is it possible the injection pump is not turning ? IE., could he have disconnected it somehow? Is there any way to tell if the injection pump is rotating short of removing it entirely? Note I have done the timing chain R&R twice on 123 cars and everything went smoothly so I don't see how he screwed this job up. IDEAS!??

Diesel911 09-03-2020 01:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HughO (Post 4089575)
I have a toughie, folks. My project car is a 1981 240 D in which previous owner replaced the timing chain and then it wouldn't start. Only 100K miles. He said probably bad glow plugs. NOT! So far I have checked cam timing, adjusted valves(WAY OUT!) , bled the system(lots of air bubbles top of filter, and cracked the injector lines. NO fuel coming to injector lines! He also had removed the vacuum pump(WHY?) which I replaced. The vacuum pump is driven by the timing chain and I assume is keyed to the injection pump. I can see the vacuum pump turning when I manually rotate the engine. Is it possible the injection pump is not turning ? IE., could he have disconnected it somehow? Is there any way to tell if the injection pump is rotating short of removing it entirely? Note I have done the timing chain R&R twice on 123 cars and everything went smoothly so I don't see how he screwed this job up. IDEAS!??

I have 18 years working as a diesel mechanic and have several times still managed to get fuel injection pumps timed wrong. Don't know about you but you can't have your A game going all of the time. And the person first changing the timing chain had what type of skills?

Other Members have lost control of the timing chain and had it drop down inside while they are rotating it in. They ended up with issues.

You need to check the timing chain itself and be sure that it is an Iwis/jiwis Timing Chain.

Also you said you are getting no Fuel at all up to the injectors. That means you could be having more then one issue.

So check the Valve timing to see if that is correct then you are going to need to check the fuel injection pump timing to see if that is correct.

If it won't start after that you need to deal with the no starting issue.

Diesel911 09-03-2020 02:05 PM

1 Attachment(s)
If your fuel injection pump has a plug on the right side that you need a 17mm wrench to turn to remove it; it has the port for the Timing/Locking Tool.

You can rotate the Engine to top dead center on the compression stroke and then continue past to 15 degrees after top dead center.

You put something under the 17mm plug to catch the about 1/2 cup of oil that is going to come out when you remove the Plug.

With the plug off look inside and see if the blade type tab is centered in the hole. Try not to view it on an angle if you can.

If it is not lined up your fuel injection pump timing is off.

HughO 09-03-2020 07:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diesel911 (Post 4089591)
If your fuel injection pump has a plug on the right side that you need a 17mm wrench to turn to remove it; it has the port for the Timing/Locking Tool.

You can rotate the Engine to top dead center on the compression stroke and then continue past to 15 degrees after top dead center.

You put something under the 17mm plug to catch the about 1/2 cup of oil that is going to come out when you remove the Plug.

With the plug off look inside and see if the blade type tab is centered in the hole. Try not to view it on an angle if you can.

If it is not lined up your fuel injection pump timing is off.




Thank you 911 for your thoughtful informative reply. Yes it is OEM chain. The old chain was in the new box. Cam timing is perfect @ TDC. Even if the timing is off shouldn't you be able to get fuel out of the injectors? No fuel comes out at all. I tried starting it while pumping the primer pump with no luck. Previous owner was a marginal mechanic. EG the adjusting nuts for the valves were chewed up probably from needle nose vise grips. I had to hammer my offset wrenches on a few of them! I will go hunting for the 17mm plug. On the engine side or the fender side? Thanks in advance. Looks like pump timing check is in my future.

Diesel911 09-03-2020 08:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HughO (Post 4089660)
Thank you 911 for your thoughtful informative reply. Yes it is OEM chain. The old chain was in the new box. Cam timing is perfect @ TDC. Even if the timing is off shouldn't you be able to get fuel out of the injectors? No fuel comes out at all. I tried starting it while pumping the primer pump with no luck. Previous owner was a marginal mechanic. EG the adjusting nuts for the valves were chewed up probably from needle nose vise grips. I had to hammer my offset wrenches on a few of them! I will go hunting for the 17mm plug. On the engine side or the fender side? Thanks in advance. Looks like pump timing check is in my future.

You are right that you should get fuel up to the Injectors even if it is out of time. However, in this last year people have been having trouble with that on Cars that have sat unused for long periods of time.

Personally am for using one of the methods to get it started by spraying something into the intake.

For me that would men un-plugging the large electrical connector at the Glow Plug Relay so that the Glow Plugs are not going to go on and careful use off Starting Fluid.

What careful means you spray into the Turbo Inlet if you have a turboed Engine while most important someone else cranks the Engine. The other person starts cranking getting some air flow going and you spray and use the minimum needed to start the Engine or find out if it is going to start.

If you do that you are avoiding spaying in a bunch of Starter Fluid and running to crank the Engine and having a huge amount of evaporated Starting Fluid hit the Engine all at one time. Done it that way at work many times on various Diesels with no issues. My Boss used to do the spraying while I did the cranking.

Or you can find some of the thread on the other stuff people have used.

engatwork 09-04-2020 03:01 PM

You got to get fuel to injectors before worrying about timing. Keep cranking and pumping the manual pump with the lines loose enough at injectors to allow them to leak. Once you start getting fuel out tighten that one down then crank some more to get out of next one, tighten it and, on a healthy engine, should be able to get it to crank with 3 working.

Vac pump is not timed to anything, just the injection pump.

HughO 09-04-2020 04:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by engatwork (Post 4089932)
You got to get fuel to injectors before worrying about timing. Keep cranking and pumping the manual pump with the lines loose enough at injectors to allow them to leak. Once you start getting fuel out tighten that one down then crank some more to get out of next one, tighten it and, on a healthy engine, should be able to get it to crank with 3 working.

Vac pump is not timed to anything, just the injection pump.


Thanks 911 in advance. Well I was able to check the pump timing with The mercedes source kit and it came in at 2 deg BTC! No wonder it wont run. I soaked the pump in the lubromoly diesel cleaner overnite. I was able to only advance the pump 4 degrees and now it sits at 6 deg BTDC. I think the previous owner must have removed the pump? Or could he screw up the timing by putting in a new chain? I got another 18-20 degrees to go before it's timed and I assume I have to pull the pump out and rotate it one direction or another. How much and which way? I am lucky to have an old 240D pump on my bench to compare things and I see the collar with the notched teeth but I don't know which way to turn things. No info on how many degrees each tooth is. Any Ideas. I would like to avoid trial and error because it is a bear to get to the bolts. BTW I didn't have any 17 mm plug bolts to check timing on my pump, just a fill plug(18mm) and maybe a drain plug(?) at the bottom which was smaller like 14 or 15. Regards. Hugh

engatwork 09-04-2020 06:17 PM

There is no plug on drivers side (USA vehicle) of pump? Do google search and read up on removal/installation of ip. The vac pump has to come off. Sounds like cam and crank are ok.

Diesel911 09-04-2020 08:50 PM

2 Attachment(s)
Quote:

Originally Posted by engatwork (Post 4089985)
There is no plug on drivers side (USA vehicle) of pump? Do google search and read up on removal/installation of ip. The vac pump has to come off. Sounds like cam and crank are ok.

Ya, well 240Ds have M type Fuel Injection Pumps Pumps and MW type Fuel Injection Pumps.

The older MW Fuel Injection Pumps have a plug that has a 14mm head and the later versions have the Plug with the 17mm head. Both those plugged holes are for a timing tool to go into. I have seen pictures of the older timing tool and I own one of the timing locking pins for the 17mm ones.

In the picture the red X marks the 17mm plug and in the next pic you see a 240D MW Pump with the smaller plug although it is not usually an Allen head type plug that I have seen anyway it is in the green circle.

I am not sure if the blade inside can be seen through the smaller hole.

I have no pictures of the M Type Pumps to reference so I don't know what is there on them.

If you go to the service manual and it has that you can use the A&B Light or the RIV method of timing on your Fuel Injection Pump you have a hole for that to fit into and there is a blade in side to actuate the A&B Light or the RIV method.

HughO 09-05-2020 10:43 AM

I see with your great pictures.It would be nice to have that nifty tool but I am doing the drip test method with high pressure. easy enough. I am assuming the lift pump is moving fuel from the tank and I see it is driven by a cam inside the pump on my old pump on the bench. I will try to pull the pump out today and see if the collar assembly is lined up with the mark on the flange. Previous owner had removed the vacuum pump for some reason and maybe he screwed up the injection pump timing. Is it possible to test the function of the cam driven lift pump? Does it have a rubber diaphragm or a piston setup.? It is a thrash getting to all the nuts holding the pump. I'll be in touch. If it doesn't start and run I guess it is a bad lift pump or lousy compression. After that I am out of ideas. Thanks

Diesel911 09-05-2020 12:15 PM

Because of the plastic lines it is not easy to T in a gauge to check the lift pump pressure. And when you can the needle bounces back and forth so much it is difficult to tell. Some have dealt with that by using liquid dampened gauges and some have used some sort of restricted orifice.

One person used that skinny plastic tubing that people use when they add on a mechanical Oil Pressure gauge and I guess the small inside diameter and the length of the tubing dampened out the impulses.

The Lift Pump is a piston type pump and is positive displacement in one direction and when the spring is compressed the spring tension move the Piston back I think the pressure was high enough it would hold the piston in that position till the pressure bleeds off. The Fuel Pressure Relief/Overflow valve determines the pressure.

Post 5 and post 11 have pictures of the innards I posted in a previous thread.
http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/diesel-discussion/356205-can-617-injection-leak-into-oil.html

Note that if you are removing the big plug on the Lift Pump when you put it into a vice keep away from the thin flanges on the casting as they are easy to crack off.

HughO 09-06-2020 02:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diesel911 (Post 4090223)
Because of the plastic lines it is not easy to T in a gauge to check the lift pump pressure. And when you can the needle bounces back and forth so much it is difficult to tell. Some have dealt with that by using liquid dampened gauges and some have used some sort of restricted orifice.

One person used that skinny plastic tubing that people use when they add on a mechanical Oil Pressure gauge and I guess the small inside diameter and the length of the tubing dampened out the impulses.

The Lift Pump is a piston type pump and is positive displacement in one direction and when the spring is compressed the spring tension move the Piston back I think the pressure was high enough it would hold the piston in that position till the pressure bleeds off. The Fuel Pressure Relief/Overflow valve determines the pressure.





Post 5 and post 11 have pictures of the innards I posted in a previous thread.
http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/diesel-discussion/356205-can-617-injection-leak-into-oil.html

Note that if you are removing the big plug on the Lift Pump when you put it into a vice keep away from the thin flanges on the casting as they are easy to crack off.






Well I put the pump back in. V hard to line up to get the notched teeth to engage. I was able to advance it to 19 deg BTDC. I am waiting for the gasket. Can I just turn the pump(retard direction) and then reinsert it so I have enough rotation to get 5 or 6 more degrees of advance or is there a formula on how many teeth(to the R or L) on the pump flange? Lining it up with the mark is not giving me enough to get to 24 deg BTDC. I am also staring to wonder if my lift pump or the check valves are the reason I get NO FUEL TO THE INJECTORS no matter how hard I pump. I also do not get the chirping sound I am sup[posed to get after pumping the hand pump. I have a 1982 240 D and it chirps up a storm so that can't be good. Now What! Does the lift pump go bad or just the valves?

HughO 09-19-2020 02:34 PM

Well my saga continues. I managed to get the injection pump timed. It was 1 deg BTC but I indexed it and put it back in and set it to 24 deg BTDC. How it could be off 23 deg is beyond me unless someone messed it up. While I had the pump out I put in a new manual pump and 2 new check valvesI cranked it this am and still wouldn't start but am getting fuel to the injectors. I noticed blow by which seemed significant while cranking. I assume low compression. Stuck rings? Something worse? The car has set for 5 years in a barn before I got it. I guess a compression test is in order? If it's stuck rings would solvents like lacquer thinner or Berrymans help? This car only has 100K and looks it. As I mentioned it has a new timing chain and the valves have been adjusted and the cam timing is dead on. Anyone had experience with the harbor freight compression tester?

Diseasel300 09-19-2020 09:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HughO (Post 4094539)
I noticed blow by which seemed significant while cranking. I assume low compression. Stuck rings? Something worse?

Uhh......That doesn't sound great. Where are you seeing the blowby? Typically the engine should be running to generate any meaningful blowby, even on a very tired engine or one with stuck rings.

Sugar Bear 09-20-2020 09:44 AM

If compression is low, yes a ring soak may and often does help. I'd try soaking the rings for days with occasional movement of the crankshaft. That engine has a rope rear main seal which could easily be damaged by solvents in the oil, I'd avoid cleaners added to the oil only soak them from the top.

I wasn't crazy about my HF tester.

Good luck!!!


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 06:37 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0
Copyright 2024 Pelican Parts, LLC - Posts may be archived for display on the Peach Parts or Pelican Parts Website