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  #1  
Old 07-05-2002, 12:25 AM
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Unhappy Electrical gremlin, possible bad starter, help!

For the last 2 weeks my TD has had an odd starting problem. When I go to start the car, all I get is a click, but when I try again it starts right up. Sometimes it will start right up without a problem, and other times it takes up to 6 times of turning the key, for it to turnnover. Is this a bad solenoid or starter. I looked up prices for starters at Fastlane, but they don't list the solenoid seperately. I have read up on changing a starter ikn my Haynes manual, does any have experience with this chassis and it's starters?

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  #2  
Old 07-05-2002, 01:13 AM
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rickjordan,

There can be a number of items affecting your starting. First, I would check the major power connections to make sure they are clean and not unnecessarily dropping Voltage. These would be the ground connection from the negative terminal of the battery to the right front fender. The bolt there has to have a good, clean seat on the the wire connector. Next, both terminals from the battery. Then, the connections to the starter. These tend to be less apt to corrode as they are made of similar metals. The other connections are not, and there will almost always be some form of galvanic corrosion at each of them over time.

Next I would check the Voltage across the battery with the motor off, no accessories on, no doors open, etc. You should have 12.5 Volts or more. Then with the car running at idle, you should have 13.6 Volts or more.

If the battery is low, see if the running Voltage is low too. That would indicate a poorly performing alternator or Voltage regulator.

With the battery in marginal condition, running the glow plugs can draw the battery down so starting it won't get all the Voltage it needs. The next time around, the glow plugs may not get the same glow period and the battery may be able to restore itself enough after the brief rest to just get the starter to run.

With the hood up have someone else turn the key to start and make sure the click you hear is really coming from the starter solenoid. A stethescope for isolating car noises might be helpful.

Once you have confirmed the starter solenoid is making the clicking sound, do it while you measure Voltage across the battery to see if the starter motor is actually getting any current. This will also be apparent if the interior overhead light is on and it dims when you hold the key in the start position. If the solenoid is sticking or not healthy it can stop short of activating the starter motor. If the starter motor is getting juice and not responding it is likely a worn out starter. This does not explain the phenomena of the willingness to start the second try as most illnesses of the motor will not get better the second time around.

So, I would suspect either a marginal battery, or a bad solenoid. The second attempt success may be a result of the clicking, evidence of the solenoid hitting something and possibly knocking it partially out of the way or something so the second attempt is less demanding and works.

Hard to say anything for sure, but there have been threads on bad dash switches, meaning the starting switch the key goes into that you turn to start the car. I have a hard time actually believing this could explain your situation as the key switch merely activates the solenoid, not the starter motor directly. The solenoid activates the starter motor when it gets to the end of its stroke and the pinion gear is engaged in the ring gear on the flywheel.

Hope this helps, and good luck, Jim
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Own:
1986 Euro 190E 2.3-16 (291,000 miles),
1998 E300D TurboDiesel, 231,000 miles -purchased with 45,000,
1988 300E 5-speed 252,000 miles,
1983 240D 4-speed, purchased w/136,000, now with 222,000 miles.
2009 ML320CDI Bluetec, 89,000 miles

Owned:
1971 220D (250,000 miles plus, sold to father-in-law),
1975 240D (245,000 miles - died of body rot),
1991 350SD (176,560 miles, weakest Benz I have owned),
1999 C230 Sport (45,400 miles),
1982 240D (321,000 miles, put to sleep)
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  #3  
Old 07-10-2002, 11:55 AM
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Well, I checked the connections on the starter and everything is clean and tight. Since I have posted this problem, the car has started without a single problem. The only thing I did was remove the battery and clean it's terminals up and topped off the water, which was down about 1 inch in each cell. Before doing this, I did measure the voltage and it was at 12. My wife took the car this morning to work and she didn't have a problem. That would make it about 9 times the car has been started without a problem. I am still shaking my head on this one.
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  #4  
Old 07-10-2002, 12:15 PM
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My guess is the simple cleaning of the terminals did the trick.

I had always heard that something so benign as bad connections on the post could cause issues like this but never really believed it 100% until I experienced and verified it on another car I had a couple months back.....I'm a believer now....100%.
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  #5  
Old 07-10-2002, 12:16 PM
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Check the battery Voltage now that it is starting reliably. The battery should show 12.5 or more Volts when the car is not running and there are no extra loads on it (no lights on, buzzers buzzing, etc.). If the Voltage is up to 12.5 or higher, something you did helped. 12 Volts is low with the car just sitting there, not running. Also check it running It should be over !3.6 Volts. Jim
__________________
Own:
1986 Euro 190E 2.3-16 (291,000 miles),
1998 E300D TurboDiesel, 231,000 miles -purchased with 45,000,
1988 300E 5-speed 252,000 miles,
1983 240D 4-speed, purchased w/136,000, now with 222,000 miles.
2009 ML320CDI Bluetec, 89,000 miles

Owned:
1971 220D (250,000 miles plus, sold to father-in-law),
1975 240D (245,000 miles - died of body rot),
1991 350SD (176,560 miles, weakest Benz I have owned),
1999 C230 Sport (45,400 miles),
1982 240D (321,000 miles, put to sleep)
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  #6  
Old 07-11-2002, 12:06 PM
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The meter I have is a simple analog one, nothing as complex as the digital ones I use at work. My meter is something like 2 1/2 inches by 3 inches, I am talking small. I will check it one more time and more closely. Thanks for all the possible solutions.
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  #7  
Old 07-11-2002, 05:54 PM
tomsugg
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Mine Too!

81 300D, 135K miles.

The clicking sounds like it is coming from the center of the front dash, and it cuts off all power to the car until it randomly reconnects power and then will start up fine! The battery is less than 1 yr old, and the alternator is new. Just where are these solenoids located? Is it my culprit?

Thanks in advance, Tom.
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  #8  
Old 07-11-2002, 07:11 PM
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on another note

rick, did you check those glow plugs again as well? how did they turn out?
btw since cleaning the positive batt terminal of corrosion i have not had that 'click' phenomenon happening either ..
altho it has been substantially cooler out these past few days. i am still convinced high ambient temperatures have got something to do with the solenoid sticking

Bob
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Old 07-12-2002, 02:50 PM
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I borrowed a digital Fluke meter from my neighbor and the battery read exactly 12.6 volts. Once started, it went up tp 13.5. Yes it has been a little cooler, and I will definetly keep an eye (ear) on this when and if the temps get back up there. I am starting to lose count, but so far I am up to 14 starts in a row without a problem. As for the glowplugs, all I should have to do is pull the connector off the glowplug relay and touch each connector and ground, like the top of the shock, and get a reading that way, correct? Per the Haynes manual, you are supposed to turn the key to "run" and then get a reading. With SD I was always able to simply do as I mentioned and get reading. With regard to the Haynes method, I don't see what good turning the key would do if you have the connector pulled from the relay. Basicly you're only checking for resistence.
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  #10  
Old 07-12-2002, 02:57 PM
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this was the text from mplafleur's post

qte
There are actually 2 measurements you want to take.

First, disconnect the plug on the relay and measure the resistance from the connector to each glow plug. The resistance should be less than .5 ohm. This confirms you have a good low resistance connection to the glow plug from the relay.

Next, measure the resistance from the tip of the glow plug to the block of the engine. This should read .75 to 1.5 ohms each.
unqte
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Old 07-12-2002, 08:59 PM
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I had known that any resistance above .5 was a sign of a glowplug going out, and of course an infinite reading meant it was burnt out completely. I didn't know about the other check using the block. I'll have to check that tomorrow or Sunday.
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  #12  
Old 07-19-2002, 05:08 PM
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Click but no Crank

I have exactly the same challenge as rickjorden first stated. I had the battery checked and it had a bad cell...so...new battery and it went away...for a couple of days. It started doing it again today at lunch. Temps here in Bishop are in the high 90's and it does seem to be more of an issue when it's hot. The guy at the auto electric place say's I need to get heavier cables and run the ground directly to the starter. I haven't been able to check the voltage yet, so I guess I need to buy a voltmeter.
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  #13  
Old 07-19-2002, 07:05 PM
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The guy at the electrical shop is full of crap. You don't have to rewire any MB to make it work. I admit that his rewiring will make a lower resistance in the started circuit but only by a negligable amount. If this rewiring was necessary, MB would have designed that way in the first place. Ask him how come millions of other MBs are running fine without being rewired?

I was told that that the wires weren't heavy enough once by a battery shop that didn't want to make good on a battery warranty. I told them to call up Chrysler and tell them they didn't design the car properly and they knew more than Chrysler's engineers. After they put in a new battery, all the problems went away.

P E H
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  #14  
Old 07-19-2002, 07:20 PM
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mbz300cd,
i have also had this high temp phenom happen. do clean the batt terminals. usually cycling the key will cause the starter to engage..
it sometimes takes multiple cycles. ambient temps 90s-100s deg F


btw i blv i have the original starter in my car and this method has never failed in high ambient temperatures/long highway runs..etc.
i do have a good battery though (sears int'l).

ps:don't turn the car off unless you have to
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Old 07-19-2002, 09:40 PM
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Rewire? NEVER!

Yea, I did take what that guy at the shop say's with a grain of salt. I feel the same way. Mercedes, especially in this later year of this models production, new what they were doing. I have had to "cycle" it a few times but it has always started. So tomorrow I'll do the maintenance on the other ends of the cables and report back next week.

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