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  #76  
Old 01-26-2006, 09:18 PM
240Joe's Avatar
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Brian,

Remember my comment about MIF (maintenance induced failure)? Check this out from the tech forum....

Safe Oil Change" .... Amazing!

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The beleaguered fast oil change industry had to do something to counter the horror stories of loose drain plugs and being the highest consumer of short blocks in the automotive industry ...

ůso as they say in marketing, here is a new differentiator: Safe Oil Changes!



So MIF is alive and well.....And they should be experts at changing oil.....


Joe

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  #77  
Old 01-26-2006, 10:34 PM
crx crx is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 240Joe
Larry,

If your oil change procedure is so superior to others (including the factory recommended 5kmile interval) why did your 240D break a timing chain? I have a 240D with over 325k miles (not as many as yours before you broke the chain but not that far off) and its timing chain is original and in great condition.

Maybe you've focused on the wrong thing?

Joe



Please stop.
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  #78  
Old 01-27-2006, 07:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crx


Please stop.
I don't think that is possible. This is an "oil thread."
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Mike J
Cary, NC

1987 300SDL
203,400 miles
How NOT to buy a MB Diesel:
Know little or nothing about diesels or Mercedes Benz.
Get the WVO fever.
Drive 70 miles to a used car lot in the country.
Buy the car without having it inspected, because it seems like a good idea at the time....
I'll be back. I'm gonna need help.
I love this car already!


1998 F-150 154,000 miles

1994 Geo Tracker 75,000 Miles
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  #79  
Old 01-27-2006, 10:09 AM
LarryBible
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 240Joe
Larry,

If your oil change procedure is so superior to others (including the factory recommended 5kmile interval) why did your 240D break a timing chain? I have a 240D with over 325k miles (not as many as yours before you broke the chain but not that far off) and its timing chain is original and in great condition.

Maybe you've focused on the wrong thing?

Joe
Like I said, here we (you) go again. This time you are even making things up.

I have NEVER had a timing chain break on any of my MB's. I don't know where you got that idea. My 84 240D went 380,000 on the original engine before the rear main seal wore to a point that it was leaking. Since the engine has to come out for a rear main seal the engine was rebuilt. It then went about 130,000 more miles before it lost oil pressure catastrophically.

Maybe if I had been changing the oil every 10,000 miles it would still be running. By your logic that would be the case anyway.

Make up some more stuff. You don't seem to be bound by the truth any more.

Have a great day,
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  #80  
Old 01-27-2006, 12:18 PM
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On an earlier post Stevo suggested switching to Amsoil or Mobil1 and we wouldn't have to change oil so often in our tractors, or cars.

I can certainly see it in a car, oil really doesn't get beat up in a car that much, unless it gets overheated, or used a long time, or gets moisture in it.

But in a tractor which is operating at max torque constantly for hours on end, under load, and sometimes really heavy loads, the "stress" on the oil is quite predictable. It is even quite different from the load that a semi truck engine is subject to, since when you lower the plow into the ground, the engine is at full or near full load constantly. Trucks and cars get to coast down hills and so forth, and thus have some relief, as it were.

Years ago, we did send some oil out for analysis, but alas, I can't find any of the data. Maybe others here have done it, for tractor engines.

I would point out that they hold a lot of oil in the sump, much more than a car, certainly, so there is plenty to "break down", that is, room for soot to build up.
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87 300D latest project!
11 GLK 350 So far, so good
08 E350 4matic, Love it.
99 E320 too rusted, sold
87 260E Donated to Newgate School
www.Newgateschool.org - check it out.
12 Ford Escape, sold, forgotten
87 300D, sold, what a mistake
06 Passat 2.0T, PITA, sold

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  #81  
Old 01-27-2006, 01:13 PM
LarryBible
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DS,

You bring up a point that very few people EVER think about. In a car it is rare if not IMPOSSIBLE for an engine to actually deliver its rated HP. Unless you have it at ABSOLUTE top speed, or pulling a heavy trailer up a steep hill as hard as it possibly can, it is not delivering its full power.

In a truck or tractor, however, it is quite common that an engine is delivering nearly its full power at all times. A good example of what it does to an engine is a Motor Home. These things are pulling their full load everywhere they go. You take the same drivetrain that is used in a pickup truck that might go a few hundred thousand miles if rarely loaded, put it in a motor home and it may only last about 50,000 in a motor home. The reason is LOAD.

If one wants to really appreciate engine LOAD, find a large truck engine shop where they run a truck engine dynamometer. Arrange to go in the dyno roam when they run up an engine and put it under full load. I got the opportunity to do this at the Cummins factory engine facility in Dallas about 35 years ago. They gave us hearing protection as we went into the dyno room and I thought "what a joke, I've been around a running Cummins before."

Well, they started up that engine and got it up to temp and you could carry on conversation in that room. Then they warned us that they were ready to load the engine. I still thought "big deal." When they loaded that engine I felt the floor shake like I had not felt since throwing live hand grenades. The exhaust manifold INSTANTLY, and I do mean INSTANTLY glowed red. I was grabbing as quick as I could to put on my hearing protection.

THAT is what a tractor in the field is doing. That engine is LITERALLY bending in the middle from the load.

I don't think there's much of anyone who would not be totally awed by being next to a heavy duty engine under full load. I also think that anyone who understands the extremes of any loaded engine would be curious about how those engines outlast a cars engine living the life that they do. One reason for that is top quality lubricants and faithful changing of same.

Have a great day,
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  #82  
Old 01-27-2006, 01:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LarryBible
I don't think there's much of anyone who would not be totally awed by being next to a heavy duty engine under full load. I also think that anyone who understands the extremes of any loaded engine would be curious about how those engines outlast a cars engine living the life that they do. One reason for that is top quality lubricants and faithful changing of same.

Have a great day,
I have to relate a story regarding a jet engine. Understand that the horsepower offered by a small to midsize jet engine is 20X larger than the largest heavy duty truck engines.

Normally, the engines are in a soundproof chamber and all observation of the engine is done through bulletproof glass.

But, there was a facility in Dallas, back in the '80s, where the personnel would routinely go into the chamber and observe the engine while it was running. This has some benefits when you are looking for leaks, however, it certainly is not without some risk. If any person or object gets within 20 feet of the inlet, they are gone.

So, this facility invites me into the chamber to observe a RR Spey engine. It's a 12,000 lb. engine that was used on some very old BAC-111 aircraft. Naturally, they give you the ear protection. They instruct you, rather sternly, that you are not to cross the plane of the front of the inlet cone.

So, they start the engine and run it at idle. A very high pitched whine......nothing dramatic. The exhaust stream is visible although the speed is quite high......even at idle.

The technician checks me out to see if everything is OK........(I'm not exactly sure why) and then signals the operator for additional power.

They push it up to a mid-power level........maybe 55%........and the engine takes on a noticeable roar. It's now impossible to speak and the exhaust is invisible. You definitely sense the power of this engine.

The tech checks me out one more time (WTF??) and then signals the operator.

He pushes the engine up to full power and the feeling is unbelievable. The entire area around the engine is filled with a roar that is so great that you cannot hear yourself utter a word.......even if you shout. The pressure wave coming off the exhaust is more massive than the largest bass speaker that you could ever imagine. I was literally shocked at the power of this engine and the vibration in my chest lasted for four hours after I left the chamber. Simply massive power. This was and engine with approx. 12,000 hp.

The operator described one women who they allowed into the chamber for a similar demonstration. When the engine went to full power, she crouched down in a ball and was praying to the Lord to end her life peacefully. They had to assist her out of the chamber. They thought it was hilarious, but, I'll bet that she was scarred for lift from that one.

I'm sure the days of a visitor being allowed into the test cell are long gone. But, it was an experience that I'll never forget.
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  #83  
Old 01-27-2006, 01:47 PM
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Many a dark night I've been out on the tractor plowing, full load, many hours, and depending on the tractor, between 200 and 400 hp. Shut down the lights and look up at the muffler, which is directly in front of the operator, and she's glowing red hot.

The new lubricants have allowed us to push engines in this way without having to replace them only after a few years. All the advances in engine design are great and all, but wouldn't be possible without concurrent advances in lubricant technology.

As I've said earlier, we change oil at 100 hours on the clock. However, it's interesting to point out that engine hours weren't even a concern until about the late 50's and early 60's when manufacturers started putting clocks on all the machines. By the way, our first tractor with a turbo was built in 1979, and it's still running perfectly and uses no oil. New Rotella every 100 hours. The second turbo engine tractor we bought was in 1986, also in perfect running order and narry a drop burned from the crankcase. The 86 (John Deere 4850) even has the original freon in the ac unit. Never leaked or been serviced. Back in those days, they really were the Rolls Royce of tractors, and may still be, but you can't say until you've used one for a few years.

DS
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87 300D latest project!
11 GLK 350 So far, so good
08 E350 4matic, Love it.
99 E320 too rusted, sold
87 260E Donated to Newgate School
www.Newgateschool.org - check it out.
12 Ford Escape, sold, forgotten
87 300D, sold, what a mistake
06 Passat 2.0T, PITA, sold

Las Vegas NV
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  #84  
Old 01-27-2006, 02:07 PM
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Larry


Good point, in fact two good posts about operating under full load and why do those engines go so many miles. Ive been around marine engines all my life (tugs) and I don't know of any companies have gone to synthetic lub oil. I always figured the "port Engineer" still believed synthetic oil caused oil leaks. Maybe not, Delo 400 is the one I'v always seen used on tugs, not sure if its a multigrade used mostly now or not. I just remember helping to pump out blue and white barrels :-) I do believe if leaving Delo would turn these companies another nickle , they'd do it.
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1985 Euro 240D 5 spd 140K
1979 240D 5 spd, 40K on engine rebuild
1994 Dodge/Cummins, 5 spd, 121K
1964 Allice Chalmers D15 tractor
2014 Kubota L3800 tractor
1964 VW bug

"Lifes too short to drive a boring car"
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  #85  
Old 01-27-2006, 04:36 PM
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I was at the MB dealer yesterday having the crankshaft pully changed and decided to have them do an oil change, since I haven't time myself. After all was done the service guy told me to ignore the book which recommends 10,000 mile change intervals and change it at 5,000 miles. They put in Mobil 1 synth. This is in the 99 gasser. I don't know, maybe they're just trying to sell oil.

They charged me $69 for the oil change and $129 for the transmission flush.
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DS
87 300D latest project!
11 GLK 350 So far, so good
08 E350 4matic, Love it.
99 E320 too rusted, sold
87 260E Donated to Newgate School
www.Newgateschool.org - check it out.
12 Ford Escape, sold, forgotten
87 300D, sold, what a mistake
06 Passat 2.0T, PITA, sold

Las Vegas NV
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  #86  
Old 01-27-2006, 06:46 PM
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Larry,

Either way, the end result was you had to completely rebuild the engine twice in 510 kmiles. I don't consider that particularly impressive.

In 510kmiles, you did 170 oil changes @ about 7 quarts per change. That's 1190 quarts of oil at a cost of approximately $1785 (assuming $1.50/quart for the prices in the old days).
Add to that the filter cost of say $5 each for another $850, for a total of $2635. This assumes no labor cost as you are free.

If you just would have gone to changing your oil every 5kmiles, the total cost would only be $1581 for a savings of $1054, and that's the factory recommended interval.

I don't see how you figure that spending that extra $1000 is worth it. You'd be better off changing that oil every 5kmiles and putting that $1000 in a coffee can waiting for the time you need some parts.

And remember, a lots of other things can take that car off the road at any time, and none of them oil related. If that happens, all your precious oil changes go down the drain. I'd rather have the $1000 in my pocket.

Joe
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  #87  
Old 01-27-2006, 08:29 PM
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Good filtration and a really good basestock synthetic oil can really allow you to put the miles on the oil. The 3k oil change is such a scam. It is 40's technology that required the 3k oil change.
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  #88  
Old 01-27-2006, 08:42 PM
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Diesel G

Where were you when I was being called an environmental wacko, a liberal, a leftist, and a retard, for trying to save a little oil?

I'd say that maybe 1/2 this forum is changing oil every 3kmiles, just...because, and that is frustrating.

We are doomed.

Joe
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  #89  
Old 01-27-2006, 08:46 PM
Craig
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Originally Posted by 240Joe
We are doomed.
Sorry to hear that.
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  #90  
Old 01-27-2006, 08:56 PM
LarryBible
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 240Joe
Larry,

Either way, the end result was you had to completely rebuild the engine twice in 510 kmiles. I don't consider that particularly impressive.

In 510kmiles, you did 170 oil changes @ about 7 quarts per change. That's 1190 quarts of oil at a cost of approximately $1785 (assuming $1.50/quart for the prices in the old days).
Add to that the filter cost of say $5 each for another $850, for a total of $2635. This assumes no labor cost as you are free.

If you just would have gone to changing your oil every 5kmiles, the total cost would only be $1581 for a savings of $1054, and that's the factory recommended interval.

I don't see how you figure that spending that extra $1000 is worth it. You'd be better off changing that oil every 5kmiles and putting that $1000 in a coffee can waiting for the time you need some parts.

And remember, a lots of other things can take that car off the road at any time, and none of them oil related. If that happens, all your precious oil changes go down the drain. I'd rather have the $1000 in my pocket.

Joe
I will say again. The only thing that was wrong with the engine at 380,000 miles was a leaking rear main seal. I chose to overhaul at that time because the engine was coming out anyway. Maybe 380,000 miles does not impress you and that is fine. I wonder what would happen if we polled engine life. How many engines do you think have made it to the 380,000 mile mark and were still running? I'm sure that there are some that go farther, but there quite a few that don't make it that far.

Now tell me. How are you going to PROVE that it would have gone that far with 10,000 mile oil changes? The answer is that you can no more prove that, than I can prove that it would not have gone that far unless I had changed at 3,000. So AGAIN it is the CHOICE OF THE DRIVER as to how often he chooses to change oil.

As I have told you more than once. YOU change the oil at the interval of your choice and I will do the same. That way we are both happy. Do you have a problem with both of us being happy?

Believe it or not, I DON'T CARE if you EVER change your oil or not. I choose to change mine frequently. So does that make me the devil? According to one of your earlier statements, it sure sounds like you think so.

Have a great day,

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