MB Turbodiesels as driver's cars
 

As desirable as the W116, and W123 -126s are, with their weight they aren't going to be the most nimble of the breed.

I'm wondering about W124 or 201 TDs being slightly more fun to drive. I've always been more fond of the classical styling of the 126 and earlier, but they all weigh close to 2 tons.

Any comments would be appreciated.
BTW... I certainly mean no disrespect to the marque! :D

By far the sportiest two are the 190 2.5 turbo (automatic only boo hoo :() and the W124 87 300D with the 603.

Those two have the most horsepower per pound until you get the the 98-99 E300 D turbos, and those are very rare, to say nothing of expensive right now. Real road burners, though.

As far as handling goes, none of them are actually sports cars in the Z3 or Shelby Cobra mode, but will give excellent, stable handling at high speed. The W115 chassis can be driving a little harder than the W123, and the W124 is a bit less forgiving (due to softening up the rear a bit for ride comfort), but all are very good "spots sedans" that can be a great pleasure to drive.

The W116 has better handling than the W126, but they are both hard to find it good condition, and the gas models are real gas hogs -- 12-14 mph isn't unusuall.

The W115 has a tighter rear suspension (less roll), but you can force the front tire off the rim before the back end starts to come loose. This was "fixed" in the W123 and later cars by allowing more body roll at the rear (softer sway bar) to give the driver more warning. Blowing a tire and a "car at the limit" curve can be a little more exciting than the typical MB driver really wants.

Rest assured -- in the real world, on a twisty mountain 2-lane, you will probably eat any American sedan or coupe, tricked out Camaros and Firebirds included, for lunch. A 'vette may give you a run for your money, but only due to greater acceleration -- they don't handle all that well.

Don't bother to try one of those Chryco fake sports cars -- they are positively dangerous at speed.

Peter

The W123 Coupes I feel tend to be more nimble than the other W123 cars, because of the 4.3 in. shorter wheelbase. They should be the most nimble out of the bunch.

I think it would be the 1998-1999 E300 Turbodiesels and maybe you could put the E55's suspension components and wheels on it...

The W123 is a pretty decent handling car in my opinion. It's 20 yrs old but the brakes are excellent compared to some 1990 Toyotas (first hand experience).

I'd not say that it's a driver's car though.. the body rolls a little too much even though from the inside it feels pretty well composed. Then again it's no 3-series.. but it's also more comfortable.

My 126 has phenominal handling capabilites, far better than my 123.

When I push the car, not only is it -extremely- hard to make it slip, but even when it does, it is very predictable. The stability at high speed is also something to behold.

Also, I don't see how you could consider any 1980's MB diesel a 'drivers car'. The sheer lack of power wil turn alot of people away.

I was speaking in relative terms. Then there is always the intercooler option for a bit more power. :(

If I recall corectly, the 87SDL 126 is 400# heavier than the 87 124 300TD. Not much of a difference but the 124 handles much better and gives a better more quite ride. Tires make the most difference in handling and ride.

Henry

Driveable MB
 

Try taking a 4 speed manual 240D, because of its spring rate and quicker steering and reliable a/c heater controls, put a turbo engine in it with intercooling then run it through a turn followed by almost any other diesel around and see who comes out the other end first. If you do by accident come second add propane injection!!

Besides all that the 5 cylinder can't be beat for durability and reliability and you can always convert them to running on vegetable oil.

If you haven't already seen our thread on "300DT intercooler pictures", check it out!!

Ben
www.reproduce100s.com

How can an E class give a better, quieter ride than an S?

Re: Driveable MB
 

How much to put an OM-617 into a 240D ? I'm talking about someone that knows what they're doing, that's definitely way beyond my ability.

BTW...I did read the IC thread.....doesn't look too easy either. Not like it's a bolt on kit or anything.............is it ? ;)

Propane ? No thanks........I don't fancy the risk / benefit ratio! :D

Why an 87 E is quiter than an S
 

The E Class has an encapsulated engine compartment with a double fire wall design and the S class does not. Makes a big difference. The 87 S class was at the end of the design life while the 87 E class was at the beginning. Same engine but very different body.

Henry

"Drivers car"is in eye of the beholder.
 

This is a topic we discuss allot on the MG web site.

I learned to "operate a car" in a 77 pinto. I learned to "Drive"
in a 78 MGB on the twisties of Mount Tamalpias in Marin County.

What is a "drivers car"? or a car well driven? I believe I drive my 124 300D in a much more proficient, alert, manner then many (most?) drivers on the road. Why? Not because of my ability, but rather an appreciation for the mechanics, the engineering, the total driving experience. (no doubt enhanced by all who read this who maintain their own cars).

I do listen to the stereo, (Blaupunkt Munchen) but not so loud
as to drown out the exhaust note.

My step father, a Belgian national used to say "Americans are
poor drivers" when I lived in Europe for 3 years I saw he was correct. The wide lanes and relatively strict traffic enforcement
allow us to put little or no effort into actually driving. Add to this the cell phone, 8Kw Bass thump, and eat/read/watch tv while you drive and it becomes apparent that while we may be a car culture, we are not a nation of drivers.

Now, I know this sounds pretty "out there" but if you think about it, I am probably preaching to the choir.

Why is it that the 5/6 cyl 2ton diesel (turbo or not) is a "drivers car"?

It is simple.

It is the nut between the steering wheel and the accelerator pedal.

Craig W. Amos
1987 300D Turbo 280K
1978 MGB Roadster

Man, you guys are making me consider a W124 as my next car... either an '87 300Dt or 300TDt, 300E, 400E or 500E.
The 300D 2.5 turbo is nice, but not as powerful as the others, and feels a bit front heavy, at least the one I drove.
I drove a 1991 300E 4matic sedan once, and it was very nice on the highway, making 75 coming onto an uphill onramp.
Only the fact I was passing most traffic made me look down at the speedo, and I was rapidly approaching 80 mph.
I could see flying around at license-revoking speeds (86 mph in a 55 withj a PA license brings an 15 day suspension for the first offense.)

The W124 is quieter than the W126 and has different handling because it has a multilink rear suspension rather than semitrailing arms. Newer design, and one of the objectives was smoother, quieter ride --The American Big Car Driver Requirements. After all MB sells more cars here than the rest of the world combined....

The engine compartment is about the same, but the W124 has a modified McPherson strut suspention and the W126 has the zero offset suspention from the C111 (ditto for the W123 and W116 cars). Probably transfers more noise into the passenger compartment via the firewall.

As far as driving my 87 300D, my sister-in-law says it's dangerous -- she was driving it while their 87 300SDL was in the shop, said it started driving "funny" on the way home (at one of the sharper turns on the country road) -- seems she was up to 65 mph and didn't know it. Sure would make the car "drive funny" -- I've never taken THAT curve at 65, even in my old Toyota Crown when I was young and stupid! Needless to say, she watched the speedo more after that. That 300D flies if you don't drive it like a gas engine!

Peter

The nut between the steering wheel and the accelerator pedal.
 

Ok, maybe I did wax a bit philosophical last night…

I agree !!!
 

My '87 300SDL handles very well for a vehicle its size. A w124 handles well also, depending on which model you have. A 500E..NO DOUBT !! The w123s are pretty good. It all depends on the tire/wheel combo you have and shocks.
But I'd rather keep a w123 than a w201. Its a good car. But i feel a hell of a lot better in a w123. After i kill the wife's car, or she'll do it, I should have my w123T/wagon done.

Again, the best diesels are the w126 and w123..Make no mistake..

The W124 is a more advanced design than the W126, no doubt! Better aerodynamics, improved suspension and handling too. Drive them back to back and you'll see that the W124 is a great driver's car. A HUGE improvement over the W123, that's for sure.

Somebody's full of... the $30,000 300D is much inferior and LESS advanced than the $50,000 300SDL, sorry.

I don't know where you think you can come off comparing the low model to the TOP OF THE LINE but keep trying...

You and your friend HGV with the wonderful post "Why an 87 E is quiter than an S" really should get your facts straight before posting. Here is VERBATIM from the 87 S-Class brochure:

"...noise - even at idling speeds - has been dramatically decreased. Indeed, most curbside bystanders may never suspect your 300 SDL Turbo to be diesel at all.

"Credit the inherent mechanical balance of that in-line, six-cylinder layout; the design of a diesel engine intended (as in seven main bearings and 12 crankshaft counterweights) to run as smoothly as technology allows; and the acoustic encapsulation system that surrounds it top, sides, rear, and bottom within the engine compartment. And literally smothers running noise. This arguably qualifies as the QUIETEST diesel automobile yet for sale."

Sorry guys, not the stripped down vinyl-interiored, paperweights you guys drive -- the 300SDL is the ultimate diesel automobile of the time. FAR superior to the common man's 300D. Keep trying, though. Oh yeah, don't put that front seat back too far or you might HIT the back seat -- where exactly are passengers supposed to ride back there anyways?


Larry Ferguson
86 300SDL 165K mi

Sorry guys, not the stripped down vinyl-interiored, paperweights you guys drive -- the 300SDL is the ultimate diesel automobile of the time. FAR superior to the common man's 300D. Keep trying, though. Oh yeah, don't put that front seat back too far or you might HIT the back seat -- where exactly are passengers supposed to ride back there anyways?

Are you for real Larry?, My Grandfather taught me a very valauble lesson about comparing. It applied to boating, but applies much the same to premium cars.

Someone elses boat is their boat, it is their pride and joy and they love it every bit as much as you love yours. So never pass negative comment on someone elses boat.

It's called respect Larry, now excuse me while I climb back in my vinyl-interiored paperweight.

Well, everyone's opinion in respect to their MBs is, of course, RELATIVE to whatever you have. Even if it may be a paperweight.

Now, stating that the w124 is more refined than the w126? I wouldn't be that bold in stating that. One of the most respected and coveted MBs IS the w126. Especially the SDL/SEL cars with the extended wheelbases.

Now, there is no way on God's green Earth that I would give up my 300SDL for a w124..Unless its a 500E. But that is a whole different animal and subject.

I suspect some us haven't driven an SDL. Make it worth your while to find someone who owns one and take a ride. You won't be dissapointed !!!

Larry, better put the asbestos suit on...
 

Vinyl paperweights eh? Hmm, if I remember correctly, the 300SDL has its amazing aluminum alloy engine? Real fun under conditions when it may overheat. How about all those neat gadgets to go wrong? I really need power seats because I cannot reach down an push a lever...BTW if I remember correctly it was a "vinyl paperweight" that went up to 900K miles before it needed an engine rebuild. Dont throw rocks at glass houses. Our cars are cheaper and don't have all the bells and whistles of the 300SDL...but those are less things to fail overtime. Your car may be more luxurious, but the "vinyl paperweights" are more reliable and cheaper to own. So pfffffffffffffff :p

BTW...this is coming from a W123 owner...with a nice full cast iron engine and a roar that sets off car alarms at idle! Little children and pedestrians can tell when my car is coming and can get out of the way....Mercedes built that in you know...German engineering at its finest ;)

I stand corrected by Dieselicious on the issue of engine encapsulation. The 300SDL does have the engine ecapsualtiont hat is so lovingly refered to in the brochure. WHat the brochure does not mention is that the encapsualtion is on the bottom and under the transmission. While it is definanlty quiter than the 5 and 4 cylinder cast iron engines, it is still louder in the passanger compartment than a 124. This is not opinion but fact. THe 124 has a double fire wall that significantly diminishes the noise in the passenger acompartment.

My dad has a 126 300SDL and I drive a 124 300TD and when we swap cars it is a noticable difference to both of us that the 124 is quieter. They sound the same to that unsuspecting bystander but leave no doubt in your mind that when the cars leaves them in a cloud of black soot, they will become quickly aware that it is a smelly diesel.

Both cars a wonderful examples of diesel engineering as well as to the robust cast iron blocks, turbo or non-turbo alike.

I do wonder why Larry Fergusan changed the tone of this thread to one of "my car is better than yours". THat is not the intent of offering opnions and providing information. To quote the MBZ brochure as fact is like trusting the car salesmen to tell you the truth.

Each MBZ diesel I have driven, back to my 1963 190Dc has given me an appreciation of the design concepts and engineering that goes into a Benz.

If you drive a 110, 115, 116, 123, etc, ennjoy them and take good care of them and they will give you years of pleasure and nights of heartache.

Henry

I put 240k on a 1987 300D. The car would cruise at 110 no problem and averaged about 22mpg with little attempt to minimize fuel consumption. It handled very nicely; never thought about lowering it and I stuck with stock HD Bilsteins and standard sized tires.

Having said that it was one of the most expensive cars to maintain I've ever owned with the exception of a 1991 Porsche C2 (type 964). I spent just under a grand just replacing the various electric seat motors (there are a lot of them). The damnable rear headrest relay kept failing. Both rear shock towers busted and the shocks came through to the trunk (no, I did not rally the car....). The transmission went at 220k. I retired the car for parts at 241k when the coolant turned black due to a failed head gasket. Turns out the head was cracked and it was NOT economic to repair the engine as there were some other items requiring attention (calipers, rotors, rear headrests). I would never buy one of these six cylinder SOHC engines again!

We replaced this car with lovely 1982 300CD. The 300CD handled very nicely, turned on a dime, and would cruise at 100 no problem. Once you get it up to 20mph it has plenty of acceleration. Let's face it, short of a V8 engine nobody has much business doing high speed passing on a two lane twisty road! The 300cd got broadsided and the insurance company totalled it.

My current car is a 1990 300TE with the SOHC straight six. This car is a gutless wonder unless you start it out in low gear everytime and spin it to at least 5000 rpm. It averages 18mpg on premium unleaded. I am turning it back into my mechanic for what I paid for it and acquiring a 1984 300TD.

For my money the 123 turbo diesels have adequte power and are much simpler for maintenance purposes (manual seats, manual sunroof on the wagon) than the 124 cars. The five cylinder diesel is a known quantity and will last much longer than any of the 124 motors.

For what it's worth.

Carl

Yes, the SDL does ride a bit smoother than the 300D, but the 300D both outdrives it and outruns it. Much more fun to drive -- slightly more responsive, better acceleration, and smaller. Nothing wrong with the SDL mind you, and on a long trip, it would definitely ride better in back, but I though this was a discussion about DRIVING, not riding!

The rear suspension on the W124 is more "advanced" than the one on the W126, but whether that gives better handling or ride is beyond me. I like mine, by brother's wife likes hers, we are fine.

As far as driving goes, the only thing wrong with the W115's, in my humble opinion, is lack of power. They drive very smartly for a 1968 design, so does the W108, for that matter. Beats a new American big car any way except, possibly, straight line acceleration. Still seems to do OK there, too, at least for me, I don't want to go any faster!

Peter

Way to go, Larry!

The 124 was intoroduced in the US in 1986 with the 260E/300E, and in 1987 was the first US 124 diesel, the 300D.

The second-generation 126 started in 1986 with the 420SEL/560SEL and ofcourse, the 300SDL.

I have driven 87 300D's, and sorry, but there is no way it is a better car than a 300SDL. I have a biased opinon though. I invite anyone to drive my car and put it up to an 87 300D, I'm sure you will see the difference.

Wow.. now we have 126 .vs. 124. I think I'd be hard pressed to choose between a four door 126 and a four door 124. However I have my heart set on the 126 Coupe...

That matter aside... Having driven both the 124 and 123... the 123 is definitely inferior when it comes to driving experience... however it does have a powerful character and I like that in a car.. just like the 126,124, 201, 116, 115, etc.

if I could choose I'd take the SDL since I don't drive very often.. but if I do I think I'd take the W124 300D T because it should be easier to park...

It depends what you want. For performance (accelleration, braking, and handling) the 124 is superior to the 126 simply because it is smaller, more nimble, and has a higher power to weight ratio. For highway cruising the 126 may be preferable (that seems to be highly debated)... I have never driven in one for any length of time so I won't comment.

I picked up Carl's old 300D and it still lives. (heh-heh!) There's a photo of it below. It's amazing what some newer wheels will do. I need to get some better pix of it, I was waiting for my 500E lights to show up first. Carl sold it to me with 229k on the clock, it currently has 241k and is my daily driver. The Neuspeed springs are stiffer than I'd like but the handling is excellent, with the Sportline control arm bushings & sway bars installed as well. Next up is the stereo install... :p :p :p

http://www.meimann.com/images/merced...ew_wheelsL.jpg

Hey,
I've still got all the stereo stuff from the car. If you did not remove the wires you can just plug it back in. I am motivated; the system is an Alpine am/fm/cassette (dolby B) with cd changer, 6 disc alpine changer (the good one), ADS speakers (f/r), and your choice of an amplifier (ADS six channel of McIntosh 4 channel).

email me at c123666@earthlink.net if interested.

Regards,
Carl

few would argue about this being a driver's diesel
 

though some may argue it's not a true benz. ;)

C30 CDI AMG

It was very interesting to read everybody's posts. I was not meaning to be malicious, I guess sarcasm is a bit hard to note on the internet. :) And how did I know Dave M would have to chime in, being with how many 300Ds he owns, LOL

I used to own an 83 300D, and while definitely not the best example of the model by any stretch (with 300K+ miles and a flaky odometer), it was my first car and I enjoyed it. Maybe the broken odometer and mileage issue is even a greater testament to the durability of the car :)

To interject some emotion, I remember that when I had the car, I couldn't wait to get something "better" -- and my dream was the 300SDL. And I admit in many ways the later model is a superior car. But after I had the SDL in my possession, it made me miss the 300D that much more. And many times I yearned to be driving that car again.

As to 124 vs 126... I can list many, many things that 126 has superior, but I suppose I will try and take the OPPOSITE side and maybe somebody can cover the 126.

The 124 with its new advances in technology included headrests that can fold down with a push of a button (buttons which are also "newer looking") where the 126 headrests are fixed in rear. The 124 came out with the eccentric-sweep wiper which wipes an incredible amount from the windshield with only ONE wiper. Acceleration is better as I have driven my friend's 300D, even though the SDL is geared a bit lower; and coming with this I would assume also higher top speed. MB lists top speed of the SDL as 119 with the 2.88, so the 124 with a 2.65 would probably get at least into the 120s (FWIW I've seen 115 and I do believe there was at least a BIT more but I did NOT have the courage to keep up with this on public roadways). Oh yeah and the 124 rims have a higher offset so you can go with almost ANY on the Internet rather than the 126's very limited selection.


Larry Ferguson
86 300SDL 165K mi

Ah, the headrest go down when the relay is functioning correctly which is not often. I spent not a small amount of money, also, replacing electric seat motors (none on the 123, thank god) on the 87 300D.

My buddy's 92 500E headrests are permanently up for same reason.

Carl

Anybody seen one of those Euro V8 benz diesels?

For the record Spoilsport, although you may have read about it a bit at freds, I have a '99 E300 Turbodiesel. I've added H&R sport springs, bilstein sport shocks, and 18" AMG monoblock II's, with toyo t1s rubber. It corners like its on rails and beyond, NO body roll and i've yet to get the tires to as much as squeak in a corner. Its scary. Definitely rides much firmer than stock, but not harsh at all, but if sporty is what you want in a diesel and budget allows, this is the way to go. If budget allows more, get the Kleeman speed sensitive suspension.($1800) I hear it's unreal.

Ok, no one else commented to any extent about the 190D, so I'll put in my 2 cents worth.

I have spent time driving other Benzes, including several months with a W116, a 16V and a W124, so I'm not completely without reference.

I can't speak for the 2.2. I hear they are slow, but then its all relative.

I have a 2.5, auto, conventionally aspirated (ie: no turbo) and as far as I'm concerned, it has enough power. The acceleration times are comparable to the 300SDL (within a second for 0-60).

It is a great driving car. It is just as tossable as the W124, quiet, very inexpensive to run (40mpg highway) and no one with a bigger benz ever gives it a second thought.

It's a two seater, but for some reason they put rear doors and a big horizontal cushion where you would normally find a back seat. (Ok, maybe that is a back seat, but why didn't they make space to put your legs?)

I rarely have more than 2 adults in the car, so that's not an issue.

I don't know how many firewalls it has. At least one, I assume.

I'm going to get a bigger Benz in the future, but I'm keeping this one for everyday driving.