Parts Catalog Accessories Catalog How To Articles Tech Forums
Call Pelican Parts at 888-280-7799
Shopping Cart Cart | Project List | Order Status | Help



Go Back   PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum > Mercedes-Benz Tech Information and Support > Diesel Discussion

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
  #31  
Old 11-07-2002, 02:56 PM
LarryBible
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
I sure hope it works, it has already been about 25,000 miles since I rebuilt my daughters 617 engine. The pliers were used to easily get the plate in place with the smooth side out. Then I used a body dolly behind the link and a ball peen hammer to peen it in place.

Like leathermang indicated, you kind of need to know how to peen a rivet. If you do any work at all on an airplane, you need to learn how to do it right and it doesn't take long. If you can swing a hammer, it takes all of about five minutes to learn.

Also as leathermang indicated, there is very little force on the rivet head that you make. The force is perpindicular to the pin that you are keeping in place.

I am as confident as I can possibly be that my daughters timing chain absolutely has equal structural integrity as if it had been done with the fancy tool.

If I remember, I will take a picture of it, the next time I have the valve cover off. I now have an excuse to show off my work.

Have a great day,

Reply With Quote
  #32  
Old 11-07-2002, 04:22 PM
Coming back from burnout
 
Join Date: Jun 1999
Location: in the Pacific Northwest
Posts: 2,274
uh..how about a C-Clamp

get a C clamp and a die grinder and make your own tool--that would do it, too. Boy I may be Chinese, but when it comes to working on my car, I am very German. I cant believe I am saying this---I still say get the tool
Reply With Quote
  #33  
Old 11-07-2002, 05:03 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: central Texas
Posts: 17,281
I am all for tools... and even better if they are the right ones... it just seems like some of the MB tools are excessively expensive either to buy or to rent.... a real bummer...
Reply With Quote
  #34  
Old 11-07-2002, 05:22 PM
gsxr's Avatar
Unbanned...?
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: USA
Posts: 8,101
Some are, some aren't. The chain crimp tool costs ~$200 from aftermarket vendors. If you have only 1 car, it's better to just rent it from IMPCO. If you have a bunch of MB diesels that need chains, you could always buy the tool, and then re-sell it... there are probably a lot of folks here who would buy it if the price was right! I picked one up pretty cheap this spring, but it came with the insert for single-row chains (gas engines). I need to buy the insert for the double-row, which will be ~$40 I think. I have one or two chains to do this winter.
__________________
Dave
Boise, ID

Check out my website photos, documents, and movies!
Reply With Quote
  #35  
Old 11-07-2002, 06:22 PM
Old Deis
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Hard to figure the likelihood of the chain coming apart. After I had completed the replacement of two timing chains on my 78 & 81 300D's I returned that tool to the shop that leant it out. While in there a self described independent MB mechanic wandered in and asked what that was? Told him. He said he had never seen one and he had used the clips on the links with his jobs for years.
The shop manager just about fell over. Could not believe the guy had not wrecked a long series of engines. The Indy said no, all was doing well.
I guess He does watch over the fools and Dingbats!
Reply With Quote
  #36  
Old 11-07-2002, 06:40 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: central Texas
Posts: 17,281
Like I said earlier... it does not take much peening to keep that side plate in place...
Reply With Quote
  #37  
Old 11-08-2002, 06:42 AM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Northern Va.
Posts: 129
My chain broke on my '84 300SD...because the rails were old and cracked. When cold (Dec.) the rails cracked and caused broken gears, broken valve cover, etc---$2500 worth of parts and labor. I would change the rails...they are cheap, and you don't know how old your's are.
__________________
1983 300SD 343K everyday car
1983 300SD 285K from junk yard-tooks parts from deer car- runs great. Brothers car.
1984 300SD parts car-Hit deer
1979 300D 175K non-turbo "Doctor"
1979 300d parts car
Reply With Quote
  #38  
Old 11-08-2002, 07:43 AM
LarryBible
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
I fully realize that leathermang and myself are making sounds that are projecting into space with no one hearing them.

As he said, it takes very little to hold the pins in place. There is NO force that is acting on that link in a direction that will force it out. ALL of the tension is perpindicular to the pins that are peened in place.

By the same token, it does not AT ALL surprise me that using the clip has been successful for the independent tech mentioned above. I personally will not use a clip, but if I did, I would be very careful to see that it was fully in place, just as I am VERY careful to see that the pins are peened properly.

One more thing about the clip. Many years ago, MB used clips, but they used two individual circlips, one on each pin. They did not use the long split clip that goes over both pins as you see on an industrial or motorcycle chain. Even with the long clip, if it is put on with the solid end in the direction of rotation, and seated fully in place, it would probably last until something else blew up the engine.

That brings up another thought. How many chain failures have been because the link came out? Most chain failures are instigated by something besides the chain itself, such as broken rails and such.

I also fully expect that there have been a number of failed chains due to someone changing them because they had many miles on them, only to have a failure because of human error during the replacement procedure. If they had left the old chain in place, they would've had no problems.

Unless a chain is stretched(worn) there is no need to replace a perfectly good chain. Inspecting the rails, tensioner and associated components, and replacing as necessary, on the other hand, is certainly a worthwhile endeavor. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

My $0.02,
Reply With Quote
  #39  
Old 11-08-2002, 08:01 AM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: central Texas
Posts: 17,281
Larry ! Speak for yourself... EVERYBODY reads MY posts !
Reply With Quote
  #40  
Old 11-08-2002, 01:04 PM
Old Deis
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Some further excellent advise from Larry. Thank you again. Remember though that with many voices often the best answers are found. That sort of goes against the old wives tale about too many cooks spoiling the broth, but here we are just trying to find a way to keep there old diesels running well, not cook dinner.
Reply With Quote
  #41  
Old 11-09-2002, 03:26 PM
Coming back from burnout
 
Join Date: Jun 1999
Location: in the Pacific Northwest
Posts: 2,274
Sent you the .pdf files--do you...

know how to use a .pdf file? If not,

http://www.adobe.com/products/acrobat/readstep.html


credentilals (me)http://mywebpages.comcast.net/rtc9/BENZ.html



Reply With Quote
  #42  
Old 11-11-2002, 07:39 AM
LarryBible
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
RMT,

Good job! Thanks for providing backup to what leathermang and I have been pounding home in this thread.

The ratcheting tensioner that I have spoken about is in the later engines, particularly the M103 and M104 engines. I'm sure it is in others. I think I said earlier in this thread that the 616 and 617 do not have ratcheting tensioners.

Carrameow,

I enjoyed your web page immensely. Your daughter is a doll! Make sure she gets her hands dirty on those engines. It'll be good for her.

Have a great day,
Reply With Quote
  #43  
Old 11-11-2002, 08:30 AM
gsxr's Avatar
Unbanned...?
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: USA
Posts: 8,101
Geez, Larry, you STILL want to argue with the official Mercedes-Benz service manual for the OM617.95x, which not only describes the tensioner used, but has diagrams to explain it? Have you personally looked at the page in the manual and read it? Maybe "ratcheting" is not the correct term, but it sure does something that would fit that description. RMT, glad it went smooth for ya! So was there any noticeable difference in engine operation with the new chain? :p


Regards,
__________________
Dave
Boise, ID

Check out my website photos, documents, and movies!
Reply With Quote
  #44  
Old 11-12-2002, 11:22 AM
gsxr's Avatar
Unbanned...?
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: USA
Posts: 8,101
OK, here's what Larry said:

The ratcheting tensioners have a number of teeth along the side of the plunger. There is a pawl that catches on these teeth as the timing chain wears. This pawl holds the tensioner in place even after the oil pressure is relieved from the plunger.

The tensioners in the 616/617 does not have this, it really only fully tensions the chain when oil pressure is applied. This means it is slightly loose at start up. I think the detent just keeps it from completely loosening when oil pressure is not present. It does not continue to tighten and maintain tension as the chain and associated parts wear, as does the ratchet.

With the ratcheting tensioners of the 103 and 104, you have to push that plunger all the way through and reinsert it in from the back. This gives enough slack to put everything together, then when the engine is started, the plunger will ratchet as far as the chain will let it go, finding its tense position.



OK. Now go read these two sections of the service manual, for the OM617, and the M103:

http://www.meimann.com/docs/mercedes/Tensioner_M103.pdf

http://www.meimann.com/docs/mercedes/Tensioner_OM617.pdf



The description for both is identical. And the OM617 tensioner DOES need to be removed in direction of travel, and re-installed from the other side. I'm sorry, but Larry was incorrect in his original statements... I'm not calling myself an expert in mechanical knowledge, but the Mercedes factory service documentation speaks for itself. Make sure you read both carefully... the OM617 document has more useful information, the M103 is pretty, umm, concise.

To properly do the OM617 chain replacement you should remove, and "reset", the tensioner. I believe that is specified in the factory procedure as well.








Best regards,
__________________
Dave
Boise, ID

Check out my website photos, documents, and movies!
Reply With Quote
  #45  
Old 11-12-2002, 11:52 AM
Old Deis
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Having pulled the tensioner from the 617.951 engine and working with it, testing it. and replacing I can tell you with certainty that the tensioner "ratchets" out. It does not collapse back into the housing if working correctly.
Call it what you will, but that is a description of ratcheting.

Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On




All times are GMT -4. The time now is 03:47 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0
Copyright 2018 Pelican Parts, LLC - Posts may be archived for display on the Peach Parts or Pelican Parts Website -    DMCA Registered Agent Contact Page