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  #31  
Old 03-13-2003, 08:36 AM
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Cap't Kirk,

You are correct, M-1 costs about $5/qt at regular price. Wal-Mart has it in 5qt jugs on sale for ~$18 now & then, but it's REAL hard to find the 15W-50 (red cap) variety. However one big advantage to synthetic is the ability to use extended drain intervals. You can use dino and change every 3-5kmi, or use synthetic and go 7.5-10k easily (longer with analysis). That alone can drop the cost in half, or even make it cheaper than dino depending on when you normally change it. I use Delvac-1 which is a little pricier (~$21/gallon), so my changes are typically $50 every 10kmi ($42 for oil and $8 for an OEM filter.) I'm going 10-15kmi and having the oil analyzed with each change via AccuTrack. That drops me to one change per 12-24 months, depending on the car...!

BTW, where is the leak you're trying to chase down? I have to say M-1 didn't CAUSE it, however it may have made it visible when it wasn't before!


Regards,
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1997 E420 - 155kmi (Bugeyes)
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  #32  
Old 03-13-2003, 01:01 PM
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LOL


well, I think it's coming from the oil pan actually.

I replaced the oil pan a while ago and used the cheap paper gasket they gave me, next oil change I'm taking the pan off and using gasket sealant on it.
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  #33  
Old 03-13-2003, 03:33 PM
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gsxr- we all know your fixation with the synthetic oil ( got a stock option??). I spoke with 3 dealers and two certified MB mechs in Delaware and PA. Every single one said "DON'T DO IT."

The reason is that the older MB tolerances were designed for thicker oil. There is (presumably) a whole list of the potential problems associated with the synthetics in older models (leaks are the least of it). Common sense tells me to use the oil my car was designed for.

BTW- I have perfect results with the Rotella 15-40 for diesels year round.
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  #34  
Old 03-13-2003, 03:42 PM
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LOL!! Nope, no stock options. Just noticeably better performance on every vechicle I've converted, which have mostly been at 200kmi+ (what DO you consider to be too high miles to switch, anyway?) As to the dealers, well, they are giving you the old CYA line... it's safer to tell you to use dino, because they don't want to be sued if you are one of the 0.001% of people who DO have a bizarre failure. I'm still looking for even one example of a Mercedes diesel engine that had a significant problem after switching, at any mileage (I don't consider increased seepage from bad gaskets to be a "significant problem" though.) In general I agree with Stevo 110% (see his post at top of this page).

That said, if you are using any 15W-50 diesel dino oil and are happy with it, by all means please keep using it! I was responding to someone who was actively contemplating a switch and was looking for good/bad experiences. I will say that the OM60x engines with hydraulic lifters can make noise with dino oil that goes away 90% of the time with synthetics. But if you have an older OM61x, that doesn't apply.

Oh - last note. Although you'd think older MB diesels were designed for "thicker" oil, you may be surprised at what was printed in the owner's manual or factory engine/maintenance manual for those years. Take a look. A better statement is that the newest MB's specify thinner oil, I believe M-1 0W-40 is recommended. I don't like this as I think it's too thin. So I stick with the "thicker" stuff, which - IMO- is no problem for the "old" cars. At least my owner's manual say I'm using the right weights...


Kind regards,
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1997 E420 - 155kmi (Bugeyes)
1994 E420 - 145kmi (Blondie)
1993 500E - 193kmi (Lollipop)
1992 400E - 189kmi (Stinky Dirty)
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Last edited by gsxr; 03-13-2003 at 03:47 PM.
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  #35  
Old 03-13-2003, 08:07 PM
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Newer MB approved service products list includes a viscosity chart which specifically supercedes "ALL" previous charts. Thin synthetics are permitted year round. As long as they are 229.x (or B3/B4 approved - CH-4 as a last resort).

Ya'll be happy to know that Castrol GTX 20w-50 is NOT rated according to Mercedes spec sheets printed today. In fact, Castrol does NOT rate it for such use either!! As mentioned the CF rating was dropped in the early 90's to meet more stringen Sx ratings.
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  #36  
Old 03-13-2003, 08:57 PM
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My car started effortlessly here in Buffalo at temps down to -4 degrees this winter. Sometimes after up to a week parked in an unheated garage and no block heater. Currently using Lubro Moly 0-40.
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  #37  
Old 03-13-2003, 09:19 PM
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"The reason is that the older MB tolerances were designed for thicker oil"
This is BS plain and simple. Synthetic oils are not "thicker" or "thinner" than dino oils of the same SAE rating. They comply with the rating they have been issued. A synthetic 5w-40 flows better than a dino 15w-40 because of the "5" rating. It also performs as well as the dino does at high temps thus the "40" rating. The advantage is greater temperature flexibility. Synthetic simply works better for extreme temperatures. Believing that running the "recommended" oil for your car, even though the oil recommendation was written 20years ago, is the right thing to do is a stupid. Why not take advantage of the advances in technology? At least run a heavy-duty diesel rated oil. Why run oil that is intended for gassers yet meets 20yr old diesel standards? The good diesel dino oil costs the same. Its a cost/benefit relationship for synthetic. At $20+/gallon for Delvac1 this ain't for me. I'm not leaving ANY oil in my MB past the 4K mark as old indirect injection diesels simply put too much soot in the oil. My choice is Delo 5w-40 synthetic, $14/gallon its hard to beat for winter use. RT
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  #38  
Old 03-13-2003, 09:35 PM
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I'm a big synthethic fan all the way around. I've had noticably better performance, especially cold starting, in both my diesels. As to bigger tolerances I can't see how that makes a difference. When dino oil is hot it would flow out just as fast. I once used syn oil in my E-type which is not exactly built like a swiss watch and it worked fine. I only stopped using it because like most english cars mine leaks oil like a sieve (I think the English design that feature in on purpose) and it was just too expensive to keep it filled. Yes, it leaked BEFORE I switched to syn oil. Because syn oil stays more fluid when cold it tends to leak out a tad more as the car sits. As described above, the old story of it causing leaks hasn't been true since before Nixon was in office. I'd recommend a switch to syn, not just in the engine but the tranny and differential as well.
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  #39  
Old 03-14-2003, 12:06 AM
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RT,

The only way to tell what your soot load is requires an oil analysis. Perhaps your older 617 engine puts more soot in, but my "old technology indirect injection" OM603 only is showing up with ~1% at 10kmi. Theoretically I could probably get 25-30kmi before it needed changing with Delvac-1's limit of ~4%. I'm in the process of my first 15kmi interval, and I'm curious what the results will be from the analysis. I'd be willing to bet a case of Delvac-1 that your SD could easily go 7500-10kmi on synthetic without reaching the soot load limit. It will cost you ~$20 to test and find out... :p


Regards,
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1997 E420 - 155kmi (Bugeyes)
1994 E420 - 145kmi (Blondie)
1993 500E - 193kmi (Lollipop)
1992 400E - 189kmi (Stinky Dirty)
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  #40  
Old 03-14-2003, 12:17 AM
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Here's some anecdotal info from the MBZ.org diesel list on analysis (edited for brevity):

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 07:29:25 -0500
From: Peter T.Arnold
Subject: [DIESEL] DELVAC-1 F-Soot Issue


I have done 4 test at various mileage to my car as i have been
studying this, here are the findings.

Mileage on Oil.------------FSoot in Suspension---------TBN
5000----------------------------------1.01-------------------6.7
6000----------------------------------1.34-------------------8.7
12000---------------------------------1.97-------------------Not tested in Error
10000---------------------------------1.62-------------------6.8


This car is driven moderately hard, usually 70+mph with very little town use. Total miles on car are 204Kmi with about 30KMI of that using synthetic. Compression appears good as evidenced by good starting in our recent cold weather. Based on my analysis of these test result, I will run the current oil to 20Kmi at which time it should have 3+ Fsoot which is below the 4.1 that is the high limit for this oil.

Regards
Peter T. Arnold
1987 300SDL, 203K on Delvac1, Floats like a Butterfly

------------------------------
------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 09:17:25 -0500
From: "John Berryman Jr"
Subject: Re: [DIESEL] DELVAC-1 F-Soot Issue


I just got my analysis back the other day. I ran Mobil 1 15-50 for 16,650mi. The soot went up proportionally as expected but came nowhere near the max concentration [~4%]. I ran the filter and oil for 16,650 and sent my sample in at time of change. I am convinced that the lower #'s on wear indicating metals were as such due to the use of Mobil 1. This engine had 199,000+ mi at last change and has only been run on Mobil 1 for about 38,000mi. of its life, the rest was conventional oil as best as I can tell from what few records were received with this car (my beloved 1983 300TD).

I am going to stick with the 15,000-16,000mi change regimen. I'm comfortable with the fact that all is well with oil and engine. Cost approx. $45.00 per Mobil 1+filter change. Cost of 3 conventional changes w/filters approx. $63.00. So I have proven to myself and all other believers that money can be saved and that the engine will be better protected by using Mobil 1 with extended change intervals. I'm interested in seeing your(Pete's)20kmi results.

Regards,
"Johnny B."
John C. Berryman Jr.


I hope Peter & John don't mind me re-posting their info here...
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Dave M.
Boise, ID

1997 E420 - 155kmi (Bugeyes)
1994 E420 - 145kmi (Blondie)
1993 500E - 193kmi (Lollipop)
1992 400E - 189kmi (Stinky Dirty)
Check out my website photos, documents, and movies!
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  #41  
Old 03-14-2003, 06:24 PM
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GSXR,

Delvac+filter+analysis=$70 every 10K
Delo syn+filter=$35every 5K, x2=$70
Same cost
Only benefit is not getting under car as often and I don't mind doing that. Would rather get the soot out of my engine. The lower the soot level the better. I believe the stuff is actually abrasive? To each their own. RT
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  #42  
Old 03-15-2003, 10:51 AM
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Kendall GT 20W50 has been the lubricant of choice in the 300SD for my favorite Indie and the MB Dealer. I change the oil about every 4 weeks. Really not considering a change to Synthetics.

Non-Diesel: The E320S4 gets Mobil-1 15W40 as specified in the class action ruling and settlement regarding the FSS.
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  #43  
Old 03-15-2003, 11:14 AM
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At the risk of sounding dogmatic or arrogant, both your indie and dealer are fools to be putting Kendall GT 20W-50 into your car because it is not diesel rated! It is not designed to carry the soot load generated by diesel engines. Only Kendall SHP (15W-40) or Super-D (various weights) are diesel rated. Sounds like they're leaving themselves open to a lawsuit, IMO. Read the Kendall spec sheets for yourself, I'm not making this up:

http://www.kendallmotoroil.com/productlineup/motoroils/default.html

Although I recommend to almost anyone that synthetic is better and also worth the cost (if you don't do extended drains to offset the price), I *insist* on using an oil with a diesel API rating (CH, CI) in diesel engines!! It's not rocket science, folks.

I'd love to hear the excuse your indie/dealer comes up with for not using the proper oil. Trust me, they're not using Kendall because it's the best (not that it's bad), but they use it because they're getting a great deal or some type of financial incentive compared to other oil companies. That's how things work in that biz...

Oh, btw, RT: Yep, soot is abrasive. That's why you need a Cx rating to keep it in suspension, where it won't abrade anything. It's perfectly safe as long as you stay below the oil's soot carrying capacity, which is ~4% for most top rated diesel oils. So there is no benefit to draining it early as long as the additive package and TBN is still OK (which the results from Peter & Johnny show).
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Dave M.
Boise, ID

1997 E420 - 155kmi (Bugeyes)
1994 E420 - 145kmi (Blondie)
1993 500E - 193kmi (Lollipop)
1992 400E - 189kmi (Stinky Dirty)
Check out my website photos, documents, and movies!
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  #44  
Old 03-15-2003, 11:56 AM
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GSXR, since its the same cost for me to run Delo syn and change twice I don't see the harm. Oil analysis seems a pain and overkill for a car that isn't worth that much. I can see it on big expensive equipment, etc. but not an old used MB. RT
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  #45  
Old 03-15-2003, 12:13 PM
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J. Scott Moncrief
 
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Calm down a bit. In reviewing the service book, the shops are writing "Kendall 15W40" with no indication of GT-1, SHP, etc. In fact both of the dealers tag the same way. The receipts are no more informative. The price has increased over the years from around $2.20/qt to $2.76 on the last service. Does not sound like synthetic pricing to me.

Her prior diet was Castrol GTX 20W50.

Regarding suing the shops, I should consider a suit for only lasting (however many miles she eventually has on her at failure) miles versus (please supply mileage here) miles.
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=========================
Previous MB:
1983 240D Euro Manual 144 Kmi
1983 300SD 495 Kmi
1986 190D 2.5 100 Kmi
1986 300SDL 202 Kmi
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