VW TDI vs. W123 - Page 2 - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

Holson Adi · #16 04-05-2003, 07:38 PM

I'm actually thinking of getting a base model Golf 1.9 TDI to drive around in (snow, very hot days, etc.). However I'm not sure if I should shell out the extra cash for a Jetta.

samiam4 · #17 04-05-2003, 09:06 PM

I'm tall and thin,

I think the Jetta seats are very uncomfortable for a long drive. Much prefer my W123 seats. Of course, my 123 seats are 2 years old-new covers, driver spring, all new horsehair pads. Huge difference on a 6-8 hr trip. Jetta is fine for 4hrs.

I think the A4's will have reliability problems with the TB driven water pump. Saves VW money but $$$ all the replacement parts. How many water pump Porches made 100k on a water pump.

Power and economy seem pretty good. We own one and have had only and armrest latch break. 2 years and 40k- everything else seems nice.

Yes all parts are cheaper for old cars- Comparing a W123 vs a VW isn't fair, you really need to compare W210 parts to the Jetta.

Michael

omegabenz · #18 04-05-2003, 10:21 PM

Id Agree with the seats, Im not tall I am 5'9", but I have very broad shoulders, and my w123 coupe seats fit me like a glove. The jetta is pretty good, fortunately they are leather, but I prefer the coupe seats.

W210 vs Jetta is more on the lines of technology or even w124 95 diesel vs jetta.

#19 04-06-2003, 06:20 AM

I own a 300SD and a Golf TDI. Love both of the cars although they are almost opposite each other in nature. On the TDI's behalf, it is nimble, peppy, economical as all hell and handles long road trips without the fear of being plagued by nickel and dime problems. There is no comparison in performance, I don't have to hope for the best when pulling out into traffic. The technological and safety features blow the benz out of the water. My only real complaint is that the cloth interior generates an incredible amount of lint! Still, the VeeDub lacks the vault-like construction, quality of materials and stateliness of the benz. I would agree with the opinions expressing that VW's are designed to have a finite lifespan (which justifies their lower price). Benz's are flat out built to survive! I think The TDI is perfect for anyone looking for the best attributes of a diesel passenger car at a fair price.

edge · #20 04-07-2003, 01:53 PM

Hey samiam4, did you rebuild the W123 seat yourself? The parts alone cost a fortune. Are you glad you did it? I'm grappling with whether or not to spring for the job.

Dana B. · #21 04-07-2003, 01:58 PM

I too, own a Golf TDI and a 300D MB. While the MB is stately and roomier than the VW, it costs a helluva lot more to maintain. The TDI 5-speed, on the other hand, is a helluva lot more fun to drive than the MB automatic.

gsxr · #22 04-07-2003, 03:16 PM

Rick, VW's decision to put a timing belt on an interference engine is inexcusable, IMO. It is a total cheap-out way to save a couple bucks on the engine. Chains are in every way superior. You don't need to check your chain stretch often. You check it once when you buy the car, and maybe every 50-75kmi after that - use synthetic oil and you can almost forget about it. And MB has a specific standard for replacement - when stretch exceeds 4 degrees, they require replacement. I can locate the section in the service manual that says this if you like.

Warden, you really should overcome the fear of OM603 heads!

The rest of the cars' features more than overcome any possibe head problems. Just don't buy one that exhibits the symptoms of a crack, and then keep the cooling system maintained so temps remain under ~105C, and they'll last forever. Better yet buy one that has a new head already, with a casting number above 603-010-xx-01, where "xx" is 17 or higher.

Everyone else: I have never owned a TDI but I have owned numerous other VW's, as well as 123, 124, and 201 MB's; and I have driven several TDI's. They are great for MPG and decent power but the build kwality leaves something to be desired. If you buy one fairly new and get rid of it after a few years that's probably the safe route. But I'd never expect one to last half as long as a 123/124/201. Also, the TDI power is much better than any 123/126, but is not quite as good as a 6-cylinder 124 diesel (or a turbo 201). Comparing to a 123 is hard. I don't like the 123 much at all, although it would be a little easier to work on than a TDI. I'd take a clean 124/201 any day over a TDI though - more solid, more power, safer, MUCH easier to work on, and will last longer too. Just my $0.02...

Peyton300TD · #23 04-07-2003, 08:05 PM

PURELY from a design stand point, I prefer the W123. I'm a designer and take a lot into account when analyzing designs. I am ALSO a fan of Volkswagen's complete line. Especially the jetta. I've not driven a TDI, just a VR6, but i LOVED the handling. I loved the design of the interior and exterior.

BUT, the w123 still reigns supreme in my opinion. Take a moment and look over a W123... noticing everything from chrome rings around the air vents to the recessed shocks that lift the tailgate on the wagons to the subtle fins on a sedan.

The chrome mirrors.

From an ergonomic point of view, the dash was designed so you won't have to move your body more than an INCH to push any button.

The instrument cluster was designed to not cause any glare. The concave/padded steering wheel was a safety feature, pre airbags.

Add into that... the bullet proof enduring interior and exterior materials... that just hold up to no end. I mean really, how is it possible that my 85 300TD looks nearly brand new inside and out? Yes, I take care of it.. but the previous owners including my mom didn't for most of its life.

For a new car, a Jetta is great, hands down. But when you can get a w123 for far less $$$, it's hard to turn down.

But at the end of the day, yes - we're comparing apples to oranges. People choose cars based on different values. My values lead me to a w123.

Eric

Holson Adi · #24 04-07-2003, 09:13 PM

Yeah I really like the attention to detail that Mercedes put in their old cars and new even. Just little things that make these cars so 'pretty' in my opinion and just bland/old/too much chrome/ugly to most. But that's good... they're cheap as a result

sixto · #25 04-08-2003, 02:39 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Peyton300TD
The chrome mirrors.

Sorry to subvert the thread, but anyone know why 126 mirrors don't have chrome facings?

Sixto
91 300SE
87 300SDL
83 300SD

edge · #26 04-08-2003, 09:25 AM

Wow, Peyton's car has to be the nicest 300TD I've ever seen. I always marvel at it whenever I see it.

Rick Miley · #27 04-08-2003, 10:01 AM

Is any of this helping? We haven't heard from the guy whose question started this whole thing.

Diesel924 - Your Jetta looks exactly like mine

sixto - Get off my thread!!! j/k Remember the W126 was introduced several years later than the W123 and was the first car they did with the lower body cladding and a general reduction of chrome all over. Why? Probably to reduce cost - plastic and paint are cheaper.

Peyton300TD - you hit the nail on the head when you mentioned materials. No new car, not even my W210, matches the materials of an 80's vintage Mercedes. Obviously, the new VW is several steps below that. The matte finish dashboard is holding up well, but the interior door handles are trashed. And I already mentioned the broken plastic bits.

gsxr - I think you're being too harsh on VW for using a belt. AFAIK, they use belts on all their engines. Mercedes uses chains on all their engines. That's part of why my E300 cost more than twice as much as my Jetta. As for checking the stretch, do you use the correct procedure involving a dial indicator, or do you use the "quickie" method of lining up the marks? If I took my car in for service, what guarantee would I have that the tech would even know, much less use, the correct procedure? With the VW, I took it in at 60K miles and said "Change the belt." No worries. And the new belt is rated for 80K miles, not 60.

I don't mean to argue that a belt is superior, just that it's not a reason to avoid the VW. Of course there are many things about a Mercedes that are superior to every other car on the road. Their advertising slogan from my childhood has always stuck with me: "Engineered like no other car in the world." That's why we drive them.

gsxr · #28 04-08-2003, 10:27 AM

Rick,

I think I'm being fair to VW on the belt thing. See, their gas engines are non-interference, so belts are OK. But the diesel should have had a chain IMO. The cost would have been marginally more to add to the design in the early 70's and that tiny design improvment would have more than paid for itself over the next 30 years. But you are correct, this is a prime example of the difference between VW and MB!

I wouldn't refuse to buy a TDI because of the belt thought, if I needed one for ultimate MPG numbers.

On the chain stretch thing. I did the dial gauge method once and it gave me the EXACT same number that I got by lining up the marks (4 or 5 times and taking the average). Since the dial gauge setup is such a pain, I just use the marks now. Like I said, it's something you do once when you buy the car, not as regular maintenance. Although if you own a 123 or 126 with the 617 engine, it should be part of the 15k valve adjustments (my 603's have hydraulic lifters).

Best regards,

md21722 · #29 04-08-2003, 10:29 AM

I've had two VW TDI's and once they got to 90Kmi they were problems. The first I bought new, a 2000 Jetta GLS TDI and put 124Kmi on it. The second I bought used, a 1998 Jetta and drove it from 80-99Kmi before selling.

Whether Dave uses the quickie method or the dial indicator is not an issue. The VW should be correctly re-timed with the computer for optimal fuel economy and performance. One of the biggest problems is where to get the belt changed reliably? Some dealers blow the engine trying, don't set the timing correctly, or the owner reports a failed engine after 2-3 weeks. After paying $600-700 for the "repair." Its more likely that every 100-500Kmi when the Benz timing chain needs replacing (depending on maintenance) that the dealer or an indy will do it correctly - on a diesel.

The fact that VW shocks go bad very early and are junk from the factory is a minus, the fact that MAFs go bad is a minus, the fact that it took them so long to fix window regulator problems (and even to recongnize the problem) is a minus, etc, etc.

This is not to say that MB's are faultless. There are problems with them too. I've just had much better results getting my MB problems fixed. I have local service which is good (unlike the VW). I can get many parts same or next day (unlike the VW).

Since they are diesels they have a following, like this forum for the MB's and Fred's for the VW.

My MB gets 27-30 MPG and is worth the cost of repair. For others and myself, the 50 MPG savings is not worth the other costs of ownership.

lorenztl · #30 04-08-2003, 12:56 PM

I own a "91 diesel Jetta and the "84 300D. My preference for comfort is the 300D. The seats and suspension are very comfortable in the Mercedes':, however the Jetta's seats and suspension are very firm and bother my back after only a short trip.
The Mercedes great shortcomings, in my opinion are the electronic ventilation control, radio placement, high engine revs on highway and lack of tranny lockup

. My Roadmaster ventilation control has a similar setup and I regularly must manipulate the temp and fan controls to get it "right". The Jetta ventilation controls are manual and work much more friendly and efficiently and I can set it and forget it.
As far as the radio placement'

' in the 300D you must take your eyes off the road to change stations and even then it is far to low to even see what station is on.
Lack of tranny lock up and short 4th gear ads to noise and loss of diesel economy

.
These items in the Mercedes 300D greatly degrade its economy and ergonomics, distracting from an otherwise excellent and in my eyes a terrific and beautiful'

'automobile.