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  #46  
Old 04-10-2003, 07:52 AM
rebootit
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Why banned

I don't know why most states choose to allow it and others don't. I know in Florida it is banned simply because a law was placed on the books banning ANY gas that is flammable. This was done because the first summer r12 was removed from the shelves there were several A/C shops in the area filling systems with good old gas grill gas. Some fires were started by people using the old open flame leak detectors.
R12 is effectively banned in this country. Existing stocks can be used but that is it. Want proof, drive to Mexico and buy a cheap bulk container and try and bring it back to the USA. I never claimed that you can't reclaim and reuse r12, just that there is not a shop around here that will do it. A couple of shops near my house actually charge people a hazardous waste disposal fee of $50.00 a pound to remove r12 and "upgrade" to r134.
I still think the risk of fire is much greater in a front end collision from a broken oil cooler than from hydrocarbon based refrigerates.


Last edited by rebootit; 04-10-2003 at 08:53 AM.
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  #47  
Old 04-10-2003, 08:28 AM
LarryBible
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rebootit,

Now THAT makes sense! There are INDEED still some shops that look for refrigerant leaks with a flaming torch.

To be clear it is the PRODUCTION of R12 that is banned. It is still legal for sale to 609 certified buyers.

Thanks for the info.
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  #48  
Old 04-10-2003, 11:16 AM
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Larry,
Is r12 banned world-wide? I remember reading somewhere that r12 is the #1 smuggled substance crossing the border from Mexico..... Is it still in production there? You TX guys could always take a vacation, drive down to Mex, enjoy some margaritas and get your AC systems recharged. Just a thought. RT
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  #49  
Old 04-10-2003, 11:29 AM
LarryBible
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That's an interesting question. If it is NOT being produced in countries where it is still being used, then the demand may remain and use up what's left.

As far as cruising to Mexico, it is more than 500 miles from where I live to the Mexican border. I'm not sure I'd trust anyone in the border towns to do it right anyway.

Have a great day,
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  #50  
Old 04-10-2003, 12:57 PM
rebootit
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Mexico will continue to produce cfc12 (freon, r12 etc) until at least 2010. They were given extra time as a third world nation to stop production. Of course many other countries never agreed to stop production PERIOD so it will always be in use. It is nothing more than "feel good" politics that stopped production in the USA.
The good that came out of it was research into alternatives. There are other advantages to using hydrocarbon refrigerates besides cost. The one I have noticed is the load on the A/C system. Compressor is very quiet, pressure both high and low are much less so the strain on everything is less. MPG went up on long highway drives by about 50 miles to the tank. Use to feel the compressor "hit" when it would cycle out on the open road and now I don't. Never had one of my MB's with real r12 so I don't know how it feels. I do know in my 300d with 134 it would suck 2-3 miles in speed when it kicked in. Felt like someone grabbed the rear bumper and pulled.
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  #51  
Old 04-10-2003, 10:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by rebootit
There are other advantages to using hydrocarbon refrigerates besides cost. The one I have noticed is the load on the A/C system. Compressor is very quiet, pressure both high and low are much less so the strain on everything is less.
Rebootit,

I've noticed the same thing on my 240D. When I had the r-134 conversion, the compressor would really pull down the engine. I also noticed that there was a whistling/hissing sound coming from the expansion valve when the compressor came on. When I converted to Duracool, I still sense the compressor coming on, but it is very light in comparison to the r-134....This tells me that the a/c components are much less strained than r-134 pressures. THis is a result of putting alot less duracool refrigerant when compared to the required amounts for r-134. Also, when installing duracool, the pressures that are registering on the guages are alot less. In theory, the a/c system should last alot longer than if I had kept the r-134 refrigerant.

Herb
'82 240D
'87 300SDL
'92 300D 2.5 Turbo
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  #52  
Old 04-10-2003, 11:37 PM
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LOL, Larry is closer to CAnada than to Mexico....

But , really, it is less distance from Texarkana to Chicago than Texarkana to ElPaso....
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  #53  
Old 04-11-2003, 08:33 AM
LarryBible
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Yes indeed, a 134 system will run a higher high side pressure, thus the compressor is under more stress, so it just stands to reason that it would sometimes be more noisy.

Good luck,
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  #54  
Old 06-10-2006, 05:12 PM
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Here is another good general background thread concerning Air conditioning...
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  #55  
Old 07-08-2006, 10:24 AM
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Quit Converting To 134a

Hey guys, quit buying R12!!! GO GET HOT SHOT! IT IS AN HFC BLEND THAT HAS A TEMPERATURE GLIDE ON EITHER SIDE OF R12's P-T! It is a direct drop-in replacement (I know by definition there is no "DROP-IN" replacement for any refrigerant) for orfice tube or expansion valve R-12 AC systems. Go to ICOR.com You will be impressed! And for being less than half the price... can't beat it. Only problem is it can and mostlikely will fractionate if it leaks out of the system. This causes funky ass problems, usually freezing up.

SO STOP CONVERTING TO 134A!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 134A IN AN R12 SYSTEM SUCKS DONKEY BALLS!!!

R-12 is being illegally produced in non regulated countries. There is a huge black market for virgin R12, but find it at your own risk.

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