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  #1  
Old 04-22-2003, 06:37 PM
I miss my MBZ
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Cincinnati, OH
Posts: 538
617 seizes then starts 45 mins later (???)

Hey all,
this one has me really cornfused.
so I replaced the injector nozzles, adjusted the valves (they were wayy out...) and pulled the timing chain tensioner on my '82 300Dt. The thing started (after I recharged the battery) and I was going to drive it to my 'work' shop about 4 miles away. Previously it had been making a metallic 'clack'-ing noise that I figured was bad injector nozzles.

it only made it about one mile. The was was running ok (idling a bit funny) and about a half mile from my apt the engine stopped- siezed kinda (it stopped abrubptly, quicker than if you press the "stop" button under the hood).
It was locked up, I took a 27mm to the crank and it did nothing, nor was the starter any good.

So I walked home, and called my bro, and rusty (today's price: $920... for a new head w/ valve guides only...) and got in my Corrado and headed back out there.
I pulled the valve cover, and saw nothing funny. nothing broken, chain was all there..hmm... I hit the starter and it turned over. HHHmmmmm..
I put the valve cover back on and fired it up. it ran...kinda rough....no funny noises....but I stayed cautious.
after idling for about 2mins, it stopped again, just as abrupt as before- the starter could not budge it.
oil pressure has been >3 bar the whole time.

So i guess my question is ? would a new timing chain and tensioner fix this ? The car is >150k old, not sure what the PO did for it. I have no idea (other than timing things) that would cause a motor to "seize" (okay, it turned later...but what it seized, it didnt budge by my 27 or the starter) and then turn over and run ok later.

If it is the timing chain, what are the chances that things are bent inside the head. Is inspecting the head/valves something I can do myself ? (I know I can pull the head myself)

Any ideas ?

-John

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  #2  
Old 04-22-2003, 08:55 PM
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Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: S.F. Bay Area
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Stopping

Angel,

Somewhere on this forum various people have talked about how one can tell just how good their engine is by removing the oil filler cap and placing their hand over the opening to restrict the blow by. Apparently, doing this will stop the engine rather quickly.

In doing your repairs, did you do anything to restrict the hose going from the valve cover to the airfilter housing?

Hope something like this is your problem. Let us know.

Ben
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  #3  
Old 04-22-2003, 08:55 PM
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Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Evansville, Indiana
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Did it squeak?

If it did, either when it turned over or when it stopped, you have a lubrication failure, sounds to me like no oil getting to the mains.

The alternative is a accesory locking up or the torque converter, but if you also had a clank, dollar to a doughnut you have a bad main. Replace it or take it apart and fix it before you run it again, you will eventually ruin the crank and/or block (if the main was spinning, the block is already shot).

This happened to my brother's 300D -- ran OK with high oil pressure until the first cold day, when it refused to crank. Took the torpedo heater to it, got the 50W oil out of it, and then it clanked. Eventually the crank broke -- the noise was the thrus bearing spining in the block with the crank broken -- only when the other side of the journal let go the did the engine blow. The bearing was welded to the crank, and the oil hole in the block was filled with silicone from the slop rebuild job, hence plenty of oil pressure and no flow to the #2 main....

You should be able to get a decent short block pretty cheap, and can use the head and chain, etc. that you have

Peter
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1972 220D ?? miles
1988 300E 200,012
1987 300D Turbo killed 9/25/07, 275,000 miles
1985 Volvo 740 GLE Turobodiesel 218,000
1972 280 SE 4.5 165, 000 - It runs!
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  #4  
Old 04-22-2003, 11:03 PM
I miss my MBZ
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Cincinnati, OH
Posts: 538
yeah...it squeaked....both times.

I did just have the valve cover off for a valve adjustment (my first MB valve adjust). perhaps some bits of gunk/dirt/hood pad got dropped into the engine and lodged themselves in some oil flow holes. I tried to be careful...

I'll have to do some looking, b/c this car's body isnt in great shape to begin with. if its broken, I'm leaning toward just parting it out, giving to a junkyard somewhere (any favorites near cincinnati ?) and starting over later in my life when I have more money and a better platform to start from (still good calif and southern W123's out there. or I could hold out for a 124 that everyone speaks so well of =)

I'll definitely unhook all the belts and make sure that its the motor. Its probably not the Torque converter b/c this happend (the first time) while I was travelling at about 30mph.

I'm not sure I can jusify the cost of a short block (and the associated repair/assembly time) on this car. I could do it myself and save labor $$$, but I dont want to....not for this body.

but I have some looking to do. thanks for the help guys (more welcome =)

-John
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  #5  
Old 04-23-2003, 12:05 AM
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I have seen an A/C compressor sieze and stop an engine dead.

Bob H.
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  #6  
Old 04-23-2003, 06:41 PM
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I've heard that if you do valve adjustments and don't tighten the locknuts properly, they can seize your engine by destroying the valves.

Eric
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  #7  
Old 04-24-2003, 12:20 AM
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Location: Evansville, Indiana
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It squeaked, it's the mains for sure.

The good thing is that all it needs, most likely, is new bearings! MB makes a VERY hard crank, and there is LOTS of babbit on the shells. Since it stopped at low speed, all that happened is that the babbit got soft. Take it apart, clean and polish the journals, and put new bearings in it and it will probably run fine.

You don't even have to remove the pistons!

You didn't do anything to cause the lockup unless you took the oil filter out and left it out --- crud will mangle the oil pump, maybe, but won't get through the coarse filter.

I would guess the PO ran it out of oil and sold it cheap. You may have run it out if it is like the 220, eating four or five quarts to a tank of fuel, it can catch up with you! If you recently changed the oil, this is even more likely, as people have been known to fill the crankase with motor honey to sell a car..... been the victim, I know.

Take a look at the u-pullit type yards -- you can usually get an engine for $100, and who knows ,there may be a nice crashed W123 sitting there waiting for you to rescue the engine!

Peter
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1972 220D ?? miles
1988 300E 200,012
1987 300D Turbo killed 9/25/07, 275,000 miles
1985 Volvo 740 GLE Turobodiesel 218,000
1972 280 SE 4.5 165, 000 - It runs!
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  #8  
Old 04-24-2003, 09:56 AM
I miss my MBZ
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Cincinnati, OH
Posts: 538
PO story sounds good. when I bought the car the lower oil cooler line (sounding familiar to anyone...) was bootleg hose and hose clamped on. I should have realized that the obvious precursor to this is "the oil cooler line broke, spilt all the oil, and the PO patched it back together". one of the first things I did was go to a local hydraulic shop, they made me a new hose for about $20- ('Ohio hydraulics' north of cincinnati, good guys =)

Can I remove the crank w/ the motor still in the car ? I've done rod bearings on a gasser once, but I thought the trans had to come off to get the crank down... Or if I have to pull the trans (never pulled an auto trans before...) then that'll be a good time to get at that b2 solenoid that I hear so much about (?)

I just need a upullit within a days drive of cincinnati. I have my homework cut out for me.
any hints on the MB manual sections/flow of events to look at for this project ? I'm thinking

1- drop trans
2- pull oil pan
3- unbolt rods and main bearings
4- drop crank, inspect, clean, polish, install and plastiguage(?) new bearings
5- new rod bolts
6- reinstall bearing caps and torque rod bearings
reinstall oilpan
7- reinstall trans
8- smoke a fat stogie while klatta-ing down the road.
9- observe motor break-in limits for a little while (just to be nice.)

(prolly wont do #8, I dont smoke)

If you really think that new bearings will fix it (I'll see when I get the crank down), then I'll keep the thing and see what I can find. I was about to post a "parting out 300D" in the classifieds. You've given me a lot of confidence- thank you.

thanks to all giving some input on this thread. I knew that MB dieselers were cool. =)

-John
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  #9  
Old 04-24-2003, 01:16 PM
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Location: central Texas
Posts: 17,277
Angel, I started to say you MIGHT could take it out.. but not worth the extra work it would cost you ..
But after thinking about it... I do NOT think you can take it out with the engine in the vehicle....
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  #10  
Old 04-24-2003, 09:53 PM
I miss my MBZ
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Cincinnati, OH
Posts: 538
I appreciate the help...I'm gonna look it up on my .pdf's later tonight....see what they say about pulling the crank (if anything).
I'm half concerned w/cost and half ...time- the car still does NOT have a body worth keeping. if all it takes is dropping the trans, unbolting stuff to get at the crank, and shoving it back together, it might be worth the small sum I paid in the first place. I have wanted an MB diesel for a while now...
If not, I'm gonna be looking for people who want parts and a yard that wants the car. I'm on the east side of cincinnati...

-John
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  #11  
Old 04-24-2003, 11:13 PM
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Location: PA
Posts: 5,440
Angel,

If you can get the oil pan off, you can inspect the bearings and crankshaft and replace the bearings if the crank is OK with out removing the transmission.

I removed the crank of a 190D with the engine in the car once even though the book said to remove the engine. Of course, I had to remove the manual transmission, clutch and flywheel.

P E H
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  #12  
Old 04-25-2003, 07:44 PM
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Location: Evansville, Indiana
Posts: 8,150
By the time you get the crank out, you would have easily pulled engine and tranny, done the work, and put it back in.

The tranny CAN be removed with the engine in the car, but getting it back in is so much hassle that it's easire to yank both -- when you've done it a coule times, it only takes a couple hours. The really fun part is getting the engine to tilt down far enough in the rear to get the upper tranny bolts back in -- this is why, I think, they were missing on my brother's 300D -- engine was rebuilt (very poorly) and they probably did the engine and tranny separate, not knowing they come out together.

Engine and tranny come out as a unit -- remove cooler lines, fuel lines, electricals, pull rad (not necessary by the book, but why buy a new rad?), vent AC (if it is charged, (you may be able to unbolt the compressor and leave it in the car), undo the shifter linkage, unplug the starter inhibitor switch, and hook up a hoist -- should be lifting eyes in the proper places or you can bolt it on. If you have a good cable system, you can loop the cable under the mount arms.

Lift engine off the mounts, lower the crossmember under the rear tranny mount, and start lifting and tilting engine/tranny. Must come out at 45 degrees, lift until the oil pan sump clears the radiator suppprt, then push car back and tilt tranny up to clear.

In is the reverse, it's really very easy.

From here, set engine/tranny down and separate them, vastly easier on the floor. Hang engine on a stand, flip over, and go to work.

Set engine on TDC compression stroke on #1 as you will have to retime it -- you will most likely have to break the chain to remove the crank. Oil pump is chain driven, too, on turbos.

Have fun!

Peter
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1972 220D ?? miles
1988 300E 200,012
1987 300D Turbo killed 9/25/07, 275,000 miles
1985 Volvo 740 GLE Turobodiesel 218,000
1972 280 SE 4.5 165, 000 - It runs!
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  #13  
Old 04-25-2003, 08:34 PM
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Location: Soperton, Ga. USA
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Peter has pretty well summed it up with the exception of the a/c system. You can pull the engine/tranny without disturbing the a/c charge. Just unbolt it and lay it over out of the way. I have bought into the fact that it is probably way easier to remove the engine/tranny as a unit instead of just removing the tranny. Make sure you have one of those mechanism that allow you to tilt the engine back. He ain't kidding when he says it has to be at 45 degrees to clear.
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  #14  
Old 04-26-2003, 07:05 PM
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Location: Decatur, Alabama
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A year or so ago I had a timing chain tensioner rail fail and the timing chain locked up the engine. Your original post alluded to messing with the tensioner. When the tensioner or rail fails the chain has way to much slack and can actually wrap itself around the bottom sprocket. There is not sufficient clearance between the upper oil pan and the sprocket for more than one layer of chain, and so the engine stops. If you turn the engine backwards slightly, it will release the engine and function properly once more, including running. I locked mine up twice before the chain finally broke.

Your problem may be something else entirely, but sounds eerily similar to my problem.

Good luck.
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  #15  
Old 04-26-2003, 08:21 PM
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Location: Evansville, Indiana
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A buddy of mine did something similar to his grain truck this winter. He put a new distrubutor with electronic ignition in, since he could no longer get tune up parts for the old one, and it fit just fine, or so he thought. He'd also put a new Holley carb on it, so he backed it out of the barn to work on it, and it locked up about 10 min later.

Turns out the oil pump connector on the drive bear was different, a strange one, and the distributor fit flush like is should, but the drive dog didn't engage, and he had no oil pressure at all. Obviously, he also overlooked the oil pressure gauge.

He bought a nearly identical truck and changed the distributor over, after pulling the pan and dropping the oil pump and replacing the drive link. Parts guys had never seen the part, fits just like the "standard" one but was only installed on farm trucks or some such deal.

Peter

__________________
1972 220D ?? miles
1988 300E 200,012
1987 300D Turbo killed 9/25/07, 275,000 miles
1985 Volvo 740 GLE Turobodiesel 218,000
1972 280 SE 4.5 165, 000 - It runs!
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