R-12 alternatives - Page 6 - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

#76 05-06-2003, 09:37 PM

Yes, the duracool can has a 134a top. Personally I wouldn't know where to send you to buy it in CA. Most people pick up the phone and order. I ship FedEx Ground. It usually arrives in about 4 working days to CA.

#77 05-06-2003, 09:50 PM

Leathermang

You asked for a general comparison of R12 vs Duracool. I'll do my best. Duracool is non-corrosive and non-toxic. R12 is both corrosive and toxic. Duracool runs about 10 to 15 psi lower than R12 on the high side. It cools marginally better than R12. Duracool contains no chlorine or fluorine. Look those up in your dictionary. No lisence is needed to buy Duracool. It can be released to the atmosphere.

Mercedes Man · #78 05-06-2003, 10:00 PM

redfox,

Why isn't Duracool sold in autoparts stores like Kragen and Autozone?

leathermang · #79 05-06-2003, 10:01 PM

Redfox, That is not actually what I asked for... (general) .. I asked for honest, factual...

You are a professional with many years experience ( from what you say )... I do not know enough to ask for the specific criteria which would do the best job of comparing the physics of the two refrigerants.. Here is your chance to shine... tell us what are the important criteria, compare R-12 and Duracool with regards to them... and tell us if there are any drawbacks to Duracool which we should know about...

If your supplier , in his training program , said to you " Don't learn about R-12 so you will have " plausable deniability " when asked about the relative merits or problems.. Tell us that....

#80 05-06-2003, 10:24 PM

Mercedes Man

To answer your question, most of the major chains have shut us out probably because of corporate ties. Many of the independantly owned parts houses do sell our product. Autozone here in Madison TN buys from me to sell to their commercial customers, but they cannot buy to sell across the counter.

Leathermang

It is obvious that if I were to answer your question the way you wanted me to you wouldn't understand it. Proverbs 12:1 whoever loves instruction loves knowledge, but he who hates reproof is stupid.

Good Night

leathermang · #81 05-06-2003, 10:33 PM

Redfox, Well, that is twice you have invoked religion/god instead of dealing with physics... You lose.

#82 05-06-2003, 10:53 PM

Both the shuttle and station use anhydrous ammonia as the refrigerant. It is a very efficient cooler requiring low power to push through the vapor cycle but it is toxic at low ppm's and it dehydrates eye/lung/skin tissue fairly easily. That's why you don't see it in general use. I've heard stories about workers in the 1920's getting killed because they were exposed. The R12/R22 were created to be safer. Also saw a post about spraying R12 on fighter jet wings. Actually it's probably R11. Until about 13 years ago we bought it in 55 gallon drums but the price shot up when R12 took off and it was not cost effective. I think it's banned too due to ozone depletion concerns. It's an excellent cleaner and is still in use in cleaning components for use in some oxygen systems that are corroded or damaged by alternate cleaners.
As for getting R12 overseas, I think American companies moved production to Central America because it still sells for about $3.50 a 12 oz. can down there.

gsxr · #83 05-06-2003, 11:57 PM

leathermang, re: relative risk - I freely admit that I have no facts to back up my assertion, and that it is purely my opinion. I kind of base it on the fact that I have seen no reports of either occurance in the media personally. Again, just my $0.02, and as usual you get what you pay for.

redfox, et al, re: Duracool - R-12 ain't corrosive. As mentioned before, it's the combination of moisture, oils, and refrigerant that forms acid - not just refrigerant and the proper oils (using the wrong combination DOES create acid, such as putting R-12 in a R-134a system, and vice-versa, but we WERE discussing a pure R-12 system, so that should be irrelevant.) And as jcyunh (sp?) pointed out earlier, refrigerants have different temp curves related to ambient conditions. Even if Duracool does perform equally to R-12 (which I have not seen documented on their website, which they obviously would if it were true, hmm?) at SOME temperatures, that doesn't mean it will at ALL temperatures. Was it "latent temp of vaporization" I think? This really becomes a serious issue in extreme climates.

I'm NOT knocking Duracool as a good product in general, ONLY the point that it is NOT better than R-12 in all respects... mostly just that it's cheap, doesn't require a license to purchase, and works with multiple oils. AutoFrost's website has some excellent technical information, it's worth poking around and reading up...

dc88168 · #84 05-07-2003, 12:06 AM

I have learned a great deal of the R12 and its alternatives on this particular thread. I found this forum is really helpful and informative in many ways.

However, sometimes I found some people taken too personal on some issues. This forum is supposed for peolpe to share their experiences and express their views on certain subjects. It is not about who wins or loses.

Have a good nite

David

________________
1985 300D Turbo

tjohn · #85 05-07-2003, 12:18 AM

Well, despite Dave M's heroic efforts to the contrary we're off topic here, so I figured I'd just add fuel to the fire

To be up front, I'm basically in favor of using R12 (I also have my 609 certification). I do have R134 in my 300 SD, and it actually cools pretty well - vent temps in the low 40s on a mid 80s day. I know several people who use Duracool, and are very pleased with it. I know of no one who uses Duracool who doesn't think its an improvement over R134. I seriously doubt that across the board that Duracool is better than R12. However, here are the other factors that need to be considered with alternative refrigerants:

1. Per Big Brother EPA, there are no drop in replacements for R12. Any "topping off" of R12 with another product is using that refrigerant in a way that is inconsistent with its approval, and one that hasn't been tested. Duracool and every other SNAP refrigerant that is approved may replace a system already converted to R134. Admittedly many people will consider this a "what they don't know won't hurt them" situation . . .

2. Some states won't allow the sale of hydrocarbon refrigerants for mobile use. My state of Virginia is one. I read of Louisiana fining a dealer who sold Envirosafe for automotive applications. YMMV.

3. OK, this is admittedly a rare one, but I am aware of an instance where a user of Duracool in a leaky system had his engine run away. . . apparently the propane got sucked into the intake and it was off to the races.. the story is here. As far as I know, this is only an issue with diesels, and could be an issue with any of the hydrocarbon blends. Of course, if you fix the system so it doesn't leak like a sieve its probably no big deal. But once your system is tight you may as well put in good ol' R12.

gsxr · #86 05-07-2003, 12:26 AM

Tjohn - excellent post - I agree with all your points!

leathermang · #87 05-07-2003, 07:52 AM

Gsxr, I have no facts either in the form you refer to.... my view is based on general principles of physics...and risk avoidance....
Here is my thinking on the lack of media reports on this... If one had a medium sized wreck sufficient to breach the fuel system and it caught on fire... I do not think many people would be trying to decide if having combustible gas let loose in the crash mix caused any problem because with the fuel available one has to assume two other sources of ignition would be there... shorts in the electrical system and sparks from metal to metal violent contact.
Because I share the view that R-12 is the best with regards to the physics involved putting a combustible gas in harms way in case of an accident seems an unnecessary risk.

dc88168, When a person with financial interest in an answer comes on the forum , makes mulitiple misrepresentations, and uses the Bible when avoiding carefully crafted quesions designed to give them every opportunity to describe the advantages of their product.... they lose.
Perhaps I would not understand his answer... but others on this forum would ... and could decipher it for (me) us....The form of the interchange makes it much more likely that the answer is not there to present....So diversionary tactics were used....

#88 05-07-2003, 07:56 AM

I was away from the thread for awhile and have enjoyed what has transpired.

I skim a lot of things too fast to pick up on some issues right away. Early in the thread I did not catch onto the fact that redfox SELLS dura cool. Now that I know that it clears up alot of questions I had in my mind.

leathermang did an excellent job of trying to get FACTS from redfox who was never able to offer them saying that we would not understand them. My hat is off to you leathermang, you asked for facts. This whole thing reminded me of many political conversations that I've had over the years. In those discussions it is VERY common for people to express their opinions based on emotion but can NEVER back them up with facts.

redfox, no i have never TRIED dura cool, nor will I EVER try duracool or any other snake oil refrigerant. The reason is that I don't want to have any part of the contamination of our remaining R12 supply in this country.

Duracool may be the greatest refrigerant ever, but it is NOT one that is in the main stream. I'm not interested in changing fittings to anything other than standard 1/4" inverted flare or r134, and it is a big mistake to NOT change fittings thus leaving the system as game for someone to contaminate a cylinder full of widely accepted refrigerant.

Have a great day,

84300DT · #89 05-07-2003, 01:09 PM

well guess i'm not gonna need an alternative to R12 after all, cause the compressor is shot and there are leaks all over the system according to my indy.
it would cost too much to keep kool with no guarantees of success...
perhaps the money would be better spent on some other stuff the car needs

at least it got the trans fluid changed while it was on his lift

gsxr · #90 05-07-2003, 01:46 PM

rebuilt R4 compressor, new O-rings, and drier can't be more than a few hundred bucks total... what kind of numbers was he talking about? just be thankful you don't have a Nipponden$o compre$$or like the newer cars have.