The oil debate again What do you think of this - Page 7 - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

aklim · #91 02-06-2005, 06:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by braverichard

The official pricing for Amsoil 15W-40 Heavy Duty Diesel oil is $5.45 a quart. I get mine though for $4 per quart. So not only is the Amsoil I buy superior to the Mobil oil, it is also cheaper.

There's no question on whether synthetics provide better protection from heat and wear and provide better lubrication than pretroleum oils. I think the reason why these oil threads always go on forever is that many engines have been shown to last for hundreds of thousands of miles while using just about any type of oil you can name. So in the end, they all work fine. Everyone just has to decide what they want to use and why they want to do so.

Well, officially, we get Mobil 1 for 4.39 a quart so for most people the difference is about $1 - $1.25 a quart. That makes me ask if it is 25% better since it is about 25% more expensive.

Many of those engine have also had their oil changed every 3000. Now, if you wanted to run regular oil and install a turbo timer or make sure you idle the engine for 10 mins before shutdown to prevent coking of the oil in the turbo, I suppose that would be ok too. However, oil cost is only one factor. The other is the other cost if you had someone do it. If you DIY then you need to calculate the cost of that too. I have to figure out the cost of the oil, my time to buy it, work on the car, dispose of the oil. Otherwise the price is artificially low. Do I have better things to dp besides an oil change and all the nice stuff that goes with it? You bet.

phantoms · #92 02-06-2005, 09:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aklim

But when the oil runs thru the turbo and you shut it down, will Rotella have the same thermal integrity as Mobil or Amsoil?

How many Mercedes have 200,000, 300,000 or more miles on them without using a synthetic? Rotella T is about the best non-synthetic you can get and with regular changes your engine will last as long as any synthetic.

aklim · #93 02-06-2005, 09:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by phantoms

How many Mercedes have 200,000, 300,000 or more miles on them without using a synthetic? Rotella T is about the best non-synthetic you can get and with regular changes your engine will last as long as any synthetic.

All true. However, would the change interval be the same? What if I used some cheap oil like what we find as a generic cheap oil at Wal*Mart but changed it every 1000 miles. Sounds like apples and oranges to me. That is, unless the Rotella T lasts as long as a synthetic and as well. IOW, how many miles between oil changes with Rotella T? Was material and engineering process (QC) the same? If the engines are different then the comparison gets weak. What we need to see is a bunch of similar engines running side by side. From there we see whether the Rotella T lasts longer betwen oil changes.

braverichard · #94 02-06-2005, 11:15 PM

Aklim I completely agree with you on the other reasons for using synthetic oil other than the claimed increase in engine lubrication, protection and efficiency. I won't see myself crawling under any car during this cold season because I have long drain interval synthetic oils in all my cars. To me, that alone is worth the extra cost. In fact, I have Amsoil in all my cars bumper to bumper -- transmission fluid, engine oil, and differential fluid. The extended drain intervals are very much worth it. Plus, if you're of the environmentally correct kind, you can also take comfort in adding less fluids that need disposal to the environment.

aklim · #95 02-06-2005, 11:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by braverichard

Aklim I completely agree with you on the other reasons for using synthetic oil other than the claimed increase in engine lubrication, protection and efficiency. I won't see myself crawling under any car during this cold season because I have long drain interval synthetic oils in all my cars. To me, that alone is worth the extra cost. In fact, I have Amsoil in all my cars bumper to bumper -- transmission fluid, engine oil, and differential fluid. The extended drain intervals are very much worth it. Plus, if you're of the environmentally correct kind, you can also take comfort in adding less fluids that need disposal to the environment.

I drove my 99 C280 for 12500 miles before it told me to change oil. If I can extend it safely and not change oil ever 3000 miles, that was 3 oil changes I save. That means 1 time of crawling under the snowy car dripping water instead of 4

Hatterasguy · #96 02-07-2005, 09:21 PM

Actually Mobil 1 runs about $4 a quart if you are buying it right. Pepboy's seems to run a sale on it once a month or so for $3.99 a quart. But Walmart sells 5 quart jugs for $19.85. So I pay slightly under $4 a quart for Mobil 1 vs $1.89 for Delo 400.

Do what you want it is your car.

TedG · #97 02-07-2005, 10:21 PM

I don't have time to read through all the posts here. I looked at the initial plug for Amsoil and I will say this:
I'm sticking w/Delvac 1 (also known as Mobil 1 Truck & SUV).
The senior chemist at a major HD Diesel engine mfr. for whom I used to work sold me on Delvac 1. They ran incredibly abusive tests with Delvac 1, and also with Amsoil, and had tons of data showing that Delvac 1 was superior to everything out there. Amsoil can talk flash point, kinematic viscosity, Seybolt, etc. until they're blue in the face.
What HD engine mfrs. recommend Amsoil vs. Delvac 1? What OEM factory race teams endorse Amsoil vs. Mobil 1? Why do M-B and the AMG product come from the factory with Mobil 1 in the sump? These are sizable and respected engineering departments.
Look at HD fleets to learn about drain intervals and performance of various lube oil brands. This is where the rubber meets the road. The economics are well-studied. Are any major fleets using Amsoil? They want 25k or even 50k drain intervals and they are getting there, but not with Amsoil. There are more major fleets using conventional oils/long drain intervals than are using Amsoil.
Amsoil gained a following among some privateers in racing years ago, but I think that most of the successful ones have now followed the wisdom of the works teams and goen with Mobil, Castrol, et al.
BTW, I called Mobil recently to ask why Delvac 1 carried the API CH-4 Plus designation, but that "Mobil 1 Truck/SUV" went to only CH-4. I told the engineer that it was widely known that they are the same product (look at the product data sheets for both) and so it seems odd that one is CH-4 Plus and the other CH-4, and he got dodgy, finally saying that I should expect to see the CH-4 Plus designation on the Mobil 1 product, and that if both Mobil 1 and Delvac 1 both show up on my mfr.'s recommended oil list (Freightliner/Dodge Sprinter), that I should feel comfortable with either one. CH-4 Plus is a matter of additional engine testing. I believe I caught him at the point of a lapse between API sign-off on the Delvac 1 and Mobil 1 products.

aklim · #98 02-07-2005, 10:32 PM

AFAIK Delvac1 AKA Mobil1 Truck and SUV is CI-4 rated

braverichard · #99 02-07-2005, 11:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TedG

What HD engine mfrs. recommend Amsoil vs. Delvac 1? What OEM factory race teams endorse Amsoil vs. Mobil 1? Why do M-B and the AMG product come from the factory with Mobil 1 in the sump? These are sizable and respected engineering departments.

Yeah sure. As respected as M-B's crappy engineering these days is and AMG's superchargers that crap out at 30,000 miles is, the fact remains that there are many things that go on behind the scenes that we aren't aware of. Relationships between companies, partnerships, ownership of shares, etc... we just can't answer all those questions you threw out.

As I stated earlier and as others have stated here, the reason why the oil debates go on forever is because we have people who have run their cars to several hundreds of thousands of miles using just about any type of oil you can put your hands on. And now that extended drain intervals is the in-thing, I can bet with you that someone out there has also achieved long drain intervals with just about any brand of synthetic oil out there. Basically, everyone just has to do what they want with their automobile.

#**100** 02-16-2005, 10:32 PM

Here in northern Alberta all the Catterpiller serviced fleets use Esso XD3 0W40 in all their engines. This oil was developed jointly by Finning (Cat) and Esso Canada (Exxon/Mobil) to run under extreme conditions like the diamond mines in the arctic -60 degrees, that and the price being reasonable is enough for me to put it in my 17 year old car. I don't run extended milage between changes as soot is still a concern.

TNT

BoostnBenz · #**101** 04-01-2005, 02:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gsxr

For the record, I looked into the bypass filters myself, and eventually discarded the idea. What I don't like is replacing a quart of oil every 2kmi when you change the filter. While the filter is almost free (toilet paper roll), the oil is $5/qt, and in 10kmi (my normal OCI) I'd have 5 new quarts put in. So for my situation, it just makes more sense to do normal extended drain intervals (10k) with oil analysis. I could actually go longer but 10k is nearly 2 years for me (I spread annual mileage across several cars).

A good setup will have the drain point lower than the bottom of the filter, so what you do is let the vehicle set for a while before changing the filter. While doing this you lose virtually no oil where as the other way a little bit is lost.

Joe Bauers · #**102** 04-01-2005, 02:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DieselHead

this is going to sound like heresy, but I think just about any oil would be ok in our diesels if it's changed every 3000 miles. I have to imagine that most oils out there now are probably better or just as good as the oils that were around 20 years ago, so we're feeding our cars (well, feeding is the wrong word because our cars shouldn't be ingesting oil) oil that is of a higher quality than the engineers of the car for us to use.

and I'm inclined to agree with Greg. changing the oil at 3000 with dino grade diesel oil is probably just as good or better than having extended drain intervals with synthetic.

I'm trying out the Amsoil for several reasons. First, it's mail order, and I don't have access to auto parts stores in NYC. Second, my car lives on the street most of the time and it's difficult changing oil often on a manhattan street. Lastly, I had some extra pocket change to and wanted to see what the hype is about regarding synthetics. I just hope this doesn't spring any oil leaks.

This pretty much summarizes the position of Stu Ritter, tech advisor to The Star magazine, and a longtime MB indy tech. Ritter argues that conventional oils are far superior today to what they were when most of these old diesels were new. He does not advocate synthetic, just regular 3000 mile oil changes with a diesel grade dino oil.

I use Rotella T in the warmer months, and a synthetic for easier starting in the winter. And I change oil and filter on a regular schedule.

Joe B.