VW TDI vs. W123

[Rick Miley]

This is in response to a question from rmmagow about my Volkswagen Jetta TDI. I chose to start another thread rather than hijack somebody else's where the question was asked.

The comparison asked about was TDI vs. Mercedes W123. Personally, I have never owned, driven, or even ridden in (that I can remember) a W123. However, I have owned a W201, a W124, and my current W210 E300 TurboDiesel. So I know what a Mercedes should be like.

As far as the TDI, it is a wonderful little car for what it is. It's an economy car, make no mistake about it. We bought that car to rack up a lot of miles on the cheap, and so far that is what it has done. There have been few unscheduled repairs in the first 70,000 miles, and maintenance has been pretty economical as well. I had the timing belt replaced by the dealer at 60K miles. That was rather expensive, but I feel it is balanced by the relatively cheap maintenance the rest of the time.

When I drive the car, which is not all the time, I drive the snot out of it. Last week I did 689 miles on one tank of fuel, which was 15 gallons (46MPG), with foot to the floor most all the time. When my partner drives it, he squeezes 49 MPG out of it.

I don't enjoy the car much because I prefer either the "stately" nature of a Benz or the power and handling of a sports car. But the Jetta has neither. The 90HP TDI engine is very smooth and quiet, and propels the car nicely. But you definitely won't win any stop light or toll booth derbies with it. The MAF (Mass Airflow Sensor) in mine is currently dying a slow death and robbing the engine of some power, but even when everything was working correctly it was no speed demon.

As for quality and problems, the interior has been the biggest one. The door handles are wearing pretty badly - that soft touch rubber like material is peeling off. Also the latch on the console cover broke on the same day that the hinge for the glove box broke. Neither is a huge problem and I haven't fixed them yet, but they're evident of VW's quality. The light switch for the trunk broke and I replaced that myself. The light for the A/C controls sometimes doesn't come on and I fix that by beating on it.

I think that's all the bad stuff. On the plus side, especially in comparison to a W123, the Jetta is a thoroughly modern car. It has ABS, air bags, a great air conditioner, and a pretty good stereo. It's nimble and easy to park. The rear seats fold down flat so you can carry a bunch of stuff. I've used it several times to haul things that just wouldn't fit in the E300.

I suppose it all comes down to personal choice. And if you're shopping for the wife of course you want her to make that choice so it's not your fault if anything goes wrong. I definitely would not be afraid of the Jetta for her, and my guess is she will probably like it a lot better. Another thing that may be in its favor is the warranty which means you would not have to work on it for some time.

That's all I have time for right now. Lots more info about the TDI is available at http://www.tdiclub.com Feel free to reply here if you have more questions.

[The Warden]

FWIW, I've test-driven a Jetta TDi with a 5 speed. As far as speed goes, it would blow my 300D out of the water! I would compare the TDi's acceleration rate to that of my mom's '94 Pontiac. That's with the 5 speed, though; I've heard that the automatic robs a lot of power. In all honesty, I enjoyed driving the Jetta around, and wouldn't mind owning one from a driving standpoint. Besides, 45 to 50mpg is real hard to argue with.

However, I have an inherent fear of aluminum heads (same reason I don't want a 603) and timing belts. In addition, it's a front wheel drive car, which in my previous experience means that working on the engine yourself is extremely difficult...impeded further in this engine's case by the computer controls.

In essence, I wuold love to have a TDi if I could afford to not perform maintenance myself and if I kept an extremely careful eye on the water temp. However, it's not the car for me right now.

Just my $.02...

[Rick Miley]

I thought about this all the way home through an hour of cutthroat Tampa traffic while driving the Jetta. I realized some my concerns are invalid when the comparison is against a W123.

First, since you asked the question in the Diesel forum, I assume you're talking about a 240D or 300D. Compared to either of these, the Jetta's acceleration will be just fine. It'll probably jump all over a 240D.

As for handling, I think it's safe to say that the Jetta will out handle a W123 any day of the week, even with FWD and the VW quirks. The Jetta is much easier to drive at 7/10ths. Every time I've pushed a Mercedes, it has answered back "I'll do this for you, but I don't like it. You're upsetting my dignified comportment." On the other hand, the Jetta says "Let's play!"

I think a couple of questions are important if you're doing this comparison. Will she drive a manual transmission? If not, then the comparo is over. Get the 300D. I would never get a TDI with an automatic. If she's at all uncertain, then get her to test drive the stick shift. My partner didn't want one, but one he drove it he fell in love. The VW clutch is light and engages very smoothly. Shifting effort is very low and the stick is quite precise. The torque of the Diesel also makes it very forgiving for a new stick shift driver.

The second question is which is more important - your money or your time? A minimum 18 year old Mercedes is going to spend more time being repaired and maintained versus the VW which is going to spend more of your money. For me, the money is more plentiful than time which is why I chose to buy new cars in 1999 and 2000.

Finally, does the wife want the cachet of "I drive a Mercedes"? If so, then game over.

[Rick Miley]

The Warden posted his reply while I was writing my second epistle, so I want to mention a couple of other things.

I think most people buy a car with the intention of putting around 100K miles on it. By that time they tire of the the car or technology advances or styling changes and they get something else. You guys in this forum are inherently different because you expect at least 300K out of a car. If you want that, then everybody knows to get the Benz. Since rmmagow asked the question in the first place and the car is for his wife, I assume he's talking about a shorter term. That pretty much puts the aluminum issue to rest.

As for the timing belt, I'm really tired of hearing about that. I'd rather have a timing belt that I know when to change than a chain where I have to measure the stretch and I may or may not do it correctly. I've been reading this board for 4 years and have never seen a definitive answer on when to change a timing chain. Regarding the difficulty, the procedure is published on Fred's site and one of our members, car54, reports being able to do it in 2 hours. He's a professional and changes them all the time, so maybe it would take me eight. And I wouldn't worry about dropping the chain in the timing case.

Regarding the general difficulty of working on the transverse engine, that is a concern although only slight. It is not packed in there the way a V6 is. In fact, last weekend I removed the intake manifold to clean out the EGR/PCV gunk. The manifold is on the back side of the engine, so I was leaning way over most of the time and couldn't see real well, but I didn't have real difficulty getting to anything. After the cleaning I put it all back together in under 45 minutes.

And speaking of EGR, I've attached an image of what you get after 70K miles if you run this thing stock. Not pretty! The EGR cycle can be turned down some with a computer, but not off completly. The computer simply will not let you do that. The other half of the equation is the PCV, which can be vented to the atmosphere instead of the intake tract. I figure if that had been done when the car was new I might have vented a quart of oil to the atmosphere. Balance that against 1/2 gallon of mineral spirits, 2 cans of carb cleaner, a roll of paper towels, a few rags, a set of Tyvek coveralls, and 6 pairs of rubber gloves that I used to clean the manifold. Thank you EPA.

End of diatribe number 3.


P.S. Warden - I'm not picking on you or trying to start a fight. You just happened to push a couple of buttons.

[sixto]

Originally posted by Rick Miley
The other half of the equation is the PCV, which can be vented to the atmosphere instead of the intake tract.

There's a variety of catch cans on the market or DIY (http://y8s.com/celica/air-oil/) that'll help keep the intake tract clean.

Sixto
91 300SE
87 300SDL
83 300SD

[rwthomas1]

Warden,
I wouldn't worry one bit about the alloy head on VW's. My family has had plenty of them and my current Jetta diesel has over 300K on the original head. Its a Texas car so it has seen some heat.... Transverse engines in VW's are not difficult to work on and the vag-com software that lets you troubleshoot. tweak 'em and turn down the damned EGR is @$200. Not too bad really. My buddy has a TDi 00 Bug with 62K on it. The only problem he has had is two glowplugs go bad at @50K and the fuel gelled once on him when it was -10*.... Great little cars and relatively maintenence free. I can do a timing belt on my Jetta in under an hour, injection pump in 3hours, injectors 1/2hr, etc. They ain't MB's but they have their own charm. RT

When a see a Jetta TDI in the upcoming years the breaks the MB mileage record of 900,000 miles on original engine I will be happy and impressed.
I also like spending 10 dollars each on my glow plugs...
VW never seemed to make a really impressive solid car (other than the Bug my dad owned) Every VW I have been in seems like it would be good for about 8 years max, and then i'd toss it out.

Ever since a friend told me about his VW Fox, and then his Jetta III
Cringe........


I don't really think ANY car can compare with the reliability of the W123 chassis (240D in particular) They also cannot compete with the amount of space and luxury coupled with this reliability.

I love my car more each second I drive it.

[edge]

Would owning and driving the New Beetle with a diesel give you more pizzazz the driving the Jetta diesel? Isn't the new Beetle roomier?

[omegabenz]

I have a w123 300CD turbo diesel. My mom wont drive it, it is too slow for her. My dad bought my mom a Jetta TDI for her birthday last November. She hated it at first, but now she really likes it, but you have to get the stick shift. It is a nice car, and in the snow, wow, very impressive. My w123 in the snow sucks. It doesnt have enough power to get up a hill, so you shift down, the turbo kicks, and you have no traction. With the jetta, just shift to the gear you want and you are on your way. I could not spin the car out with factory MXV4 tires, I tried with my friends, no luck. We put on studded snow tires, and wow, you cannot spin it out, I tried even harder.

VW JETTA TDI stick, is a very impressive car. It blends in very well. People dont think of you as stuck up. A lot of kids around here have the Jetta 1.8 T, however the TDI that we got is fully loaded, most of their cars are stripped models.

My mom doesnt like to be seen in a mercedes because people think shes stuck up like that, and she doesnt like that image.

[Diesel 924]

I have both cars. They are apples and oranges to compare. The Jetta has a lot of pep, the M-B has class. The Jetta gets 50 MPG, but I don't think it's going to be as reliable as the Merc. It has already had an injection pump replaced at 16,000 miles under warranty. If that had gone and it wasn't covered, I would have been looking at a $3500 bill. Yippee. Parts are relatively cheap for the M-B. The A/C works well in the Jetta and the stereo rocks. Good points to each car.

Hey all;

I also have both a 1998 Jetta TDi and the 1982 240D. The TDi is certainly faster and more consistent but my 240D remains my favorite.

I have some 80,000 on the TDi and 252,700 on the 240D. The 240D is fun because it is a 4-speed but remains nearly the slowest car known to man. It is however much more comfortable than the TDi and rarely requires maintenance.

This is my third W123 and more than likely not my last...

my couple pennies......

[GregS]

Originally posted by marc hollander
It is however much more comfortable than the TDi and rarely requires maintenance.

How is a 240D more comfortable than a TDI? One thing I have always hated about my 300D are the horrible, unsupportive, no lumbar support-having seats, and the unacceptable engine/road noise on the highway. The TDI, in mark IV form, is really quite quiet on the highway, although I thought the mark III was very noisy.

I am starting to look at this more as a safety issue. I don't think anyone can argue that you are much safer in a car with front and side airbags. Maybe the w123 was a safe car for its day, but Jettas and Beetles have a 5 star crash rating, and I'm thinking that is more important than getting 300,000 miles out of my car or having the catche of driving a Benz. I have been in three different junkyards this past month and saw what a side impact will do to a w123. I gotta tell you, it makes me want to sell my car.

When I find a TDI that I like in my pricerange I think the w123 will be history.

GregS
'84 300D, 173k
'90 300CE, 163k

And drive it for 300,000 miles. Then report how great it is. If you want a car that gets good mileage and you can throw away at 200K, get a Honda. The reason we have the W123's and the old MB diesels in general is because we take pride in driving them for 300K, and actually enjoy it. It is a classic that will easily outlast many new cars.
Safety I guess is a factor, but compare a W123 to the Volvo 240 series everyone brags is so safe...the W123 is head and shoulders above.

GregS --

I have to agree with all your comments and representations. I actually like the fact that when the W123 comes down the road, there is no doubt what it is. Unlike the W123, the TDi is but another car.

The W123 is not the end all to luxury but in its day I bet it was. The TDi is certainly safer but there is no excitement at all and I guess that is the trade-off.

[DieselHead]

Given VW's questionable reliability records and quality control processes (keeping almost all their cars from being recommended by Consumer Reports), I would not buy a Volkswagon for atleast a few years AFTER their reliability reports show "all clear." That is, I would not buy a VW until some time from now.