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-   -   Soybean oil in my SDL.............. (http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/diesel-discussion/80790-soybean-oil-my-sdl.html)

Plantman 11-30-2003 05:33 PM

Soybean oil in my SDL..............
 
After reading all the posts on biodiesel, I decided to try it out to satisfy my curiosity.

I purchased 2.5 gallons of Soybean oil @BJ's and added it to about 18 gallons of diesel already in the tank.

While I cannot comment on performance, I can say that the car smokes significantly less and is much quieter than before.

And while the exhaust does smell and bit different, I can't say it smell like french fries.

Maybe my imagiantion, but it sure seems like it makes a difference.

BYW, the 2.5 gallons cost me 12.00, or a little over 4.00 per gallon. Just figured I'd try it.


My wife an dkid were sure looking at me funny while I was pouring it into my car.

Thanks for listening....

sixto 11-30-2003 05:44 PM

Re: Soybean oil in my SDL..............
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Plantman
I can't say it smell like french fries.
You need to add seasoning to get that french fry smell :)

Sixto
95 S420
87 300SDL
83 300SD ... $1100, see cars forum

R Leo 11-30-2003 05:58 PM

Re: Soybean oil in my SDL..............
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Plantman
while the exhaust does smell and bit different, I can't say it smell like french fries.
Don't be chicken, run that SDL all the way down to "E" and then pour in 4 gallons of soybean oil. I guarantee it will smell different.

Read here: http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/alternative-fuels/59858-shes-cookin.html?highlight=vegetable

sixto 11-30-2003 06:14 PM

Are vegetable oils completely miscible in Diesel fuel? No chance of it separating and solidifying along the bottom of the tank?

Sixto
95 S420
87 300SDL
83 300SD ... $1100, see cars forum

kerry 11-30-2003 06:29 PM

You can double the usefulness of the oil and get the right smell by using it to cook some french fries before putting it in your tank. For a really elite odor, fry some caviar in it before putting it in your tank.

djugurba 11-30-2003 07:53 PM

welcome to the club
 
excellent!
both my '87 300sdl and '85 300d are on a strict veggie diet. Much quieter and almost smokeless.
cheers,
Kevin

slowmoe 11-30-2003 08:22 PM

I seem to remember reading a post a few months back speaking about how the "newer" diesels (1986+) could be damaged by running bioD... something about the injection pumps being more sensitive, maybe? . Any truth to this?

Plantman 11-30-2003 09:39 PM

I have no doubt it will smell different if it were pure veggie oil. As I said earlier, it already smells different and is no doubt less smoky and quieter.

nhodges 12-01-2003 03:11 AM

Veggies
 
djugurba:

Do you have PICs of the system you installed inyour SDL. If so, can/will you PM them to me? Where do you store the oil?

Oil_burner 12-01-2003 09:00 AM

Just a warning for those not lucky enough to be in warm climates: most veggie oils will solidify at surprisingly warm temperatures - much above water freezing. While they are completely miscible in diesel fuel, adding them will significantly raise the point at which your fuel filters will become plugged.

punky 12-01-2003 09:40 AM

Soy oil
 
I tried some soy in my 240d a couple of times this past summer. The smell was like burnt popcorn to me. Not a pleasant smell by anyones standards.
Off topic, I always wanted to set my idle speed but without a tach I really don't know what rpm it's running. A diesel pickup pulled up next to me a light and I heard it's idle so I matched mine to his using my idle knob and my ear. Very happy with my idle now, always had it set way too slow.

Roger 12-01-2003 10:03 AM

Well! Some how last week I managed to run out of fuel near a convenience store so I fell back on the ol' reliable bottle of Wesson oil to take me to the nearest diesel pump. Used to do that with my old VW rabbit back when Diesel pumps could be few and far between.

Roger 12-01-2003 10:05 AM

I understand that the only vegetable oil that dosen't do well running a diesel engine at least for a short time is cottonseed oil -- not enough BTU's or so I read some years ago. Any one know if this is true?

sohj 12-01-2003 10:57 AM

I knew (now dead these last three years) a former cotton farmer from East Texas who said that in WWII when the rationing was on and plenty of other times, they ran their tractors on cottonseed oil. No problems.

Haven't heard of any veggie oil it won't run on. Nor, actually, animal fats, either. As long as you can keep the viscosity low, you can burn it. I know a guy over the web in Australia who (claims to) runs his vehicle on animal fats (lard, suet, etc.).

djugurba 12-01-2003 11:49 AM

the 'system'
 
I'm using commercially produced Biodiesel right now, which does not require any modification to my 300SDL. I'll be getting the kit from Neoteric (www.biofuels.ca), or making one myself that is similar, probably in the spring. Seems my wife wants to buy christmas presents or something, and doesn't seem to agree that cleaner air (via veg-oil kits for my cars) is a good enough gift...:D

When the kit goes in, however, pictures will document the occasion. I've still got to get the Trap Oxidizer removed! yikes!

K

Oil_burner 12-01-2003 11:57 AM

Running animal fats would be a pain as very few are liquid unless they are kept fairly warm. I have used them by converting them via transesterification to methyl esters (biodiesel). The biodiesel that results is useable over a much wider temperature range.

For more info check out some of the biodiesel sites:

http://www.dancingrabbit.org/biodiesel/
http://www.veggievan.org/
http://www.biodiesel.org/

A search for biodiesel will show tons of sites.

Roger 12-01-2003 01:51 PM

sohj
Thanks for the info on cottonseed oil. My grandfather burned "coal oil" in his Farmall in West KY back in those days.

Roger

Fredmburgess 12-01-2003 03:55 PM

Runs on engine oil too
 
Hey Roger - I ran the darn Benz out of diesel AND vegoil about 1/4 mile from a service area on the NY Thruway. Station attendant said it "was against the law" for him to loan me a can for fuel since I wasn't supposed to be walking along the interstate...(I could see the car from the pumps!). Anyway, I got ticked off and on my way back to the car to call AAA remembered I had a quart of Rotella in the trunk. stuck the fuel line in the bottle, pumped the air out of the system, and drove the sucker to the pumps...ran pretty well since the engine was good and hot.. Of course, it would be more clever not to run BOTH tanks out of fuel...DOH!

F

R Leo 12-01-2003 04:03 PM

They run on (used) engine oil too!!
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Fredmburgess
I had a quart of Rotella in the trunk.
F

At regular intervals, Marlene also gets to burn the used Rotella T from both her's and Lilly's crankcases. Yum!

Q45Denver 12-01-2003 04:48 PM

Thought you might be interested. I recently bought 35 lbs (4.6 gallons) of soybean oil at Costco for about $11. I used it to fry a turkey and plan to burn it in the Mercedes when the weather warms up. It has stayed fairly liquid so far in the garage.

MJ_ 12-01-2003 06:34 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by sixto
Are vegetable oils completely miscible in Diesel fuel? No chance of it separating and solidifying along the bottom of the tank?

Sixto
95 S420
87 300SDL
83 300SD ... $1100, see cars forum


If you are asking whether Biodiesel is ok for MB Diesel cars, the answer based on my brief experience is yes. I'm new to it. Been using B100 since September and no problems until Sunday when temperatures reached sub-zero levels. Had to scrape the frost off my Baby. Didn't run in the morning but it was fine in the afternoon! Will have to get an engine heater and prob'ly some additive for future sub-z Atlanta temps. Hope this helps!

Triffin 12-01-2003 07:38 PM

Everything you've ever wanted to burn in
your diesel ..

http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/alternative-fuels/57666-what-cant-we-burn-our-diesels.html#post347609

Triffin ..

MJ_ 12-01-2003 08:00 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Triffin
Everything you've ever wanted to burn in
your diesel ..

http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/showthread.php?s=&postid=347609#post347609

Triffin ..

That's quite a list!

Any idea what would be a good engine heater? Am also looking into additives to prevent the B100 from freezing/coagulating.

Also need new tires, engine oil (synth or not synth, that is a question)... Am very new at this btw! Thanx!

MJ_ 12-01-2003 08:08 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by slowmoe
I seem to remember reading a post a few months back speaking about how the "newer" diesels (1986+) could be damaged by running bioD... something about the injection pumps being more sensitive, maybe? . Any truth to this?
I have an 86 190D. Been using B100 since September (3 months now). Been running fine except for the sub-zero temps Turkey Sunday morn. Baby was fine in the afternoon tho':cool:

I'd like to see that comment about potential damage to my auto/friend if you'd be so awesome as to direct me to it. Thanx!

djugurba 12-01-2003 08:16 PM

additive
 
there is a biodiesel-specific anti-gelling compound made.. Power Service I think.
I didn't have any problems starting either of my b100 cars at around 29 degrees F this weekend. I've got block heaters installed in both, but didn't use them. that should be enough for the south. Up north, some folks will install heated fuel lines and a pre-filter heater (veg-therm from www.biofuels.ca).
MJ_ , are you buying or making biodiesel?

Kevin

Plantman 12-01-2003 09:37 PM

My kids were unaware that I had put the Soybean oil in.

We were at a stop light and my 14 year old tells me" Dad, it smells like fried food around here?"
:)

MJ_ 12-01-2003 10:53 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Plantman
My kids were unaware that I had put the Soybean oil in.

We were at a stop light and my 14 year old tells me" Dad, it smells like fried food around here?"
:)

I get that all the time! :D
Friends have looked around my car for popcorn -fresh, not burnt- grilling steaks, :rolleyes: anything cooking and of course, the ever popular french fries! ;)

MJ_ 12-02-2003 12:02 AM

Re: additive
 
Quote:

Originally posted by djugurba
there is a biodiesel-specific anti-gelling compound made.. Power Service I think.
I didn't have any problems starting either of my b100 cars at around 29 degrees F this weekend. I've got block heaters installed in both, but didn't use them. that should be enough for the south. Up north, some folks will install heated fuel lines and a pre-filter heater (veg-therm from www.biofuels.ca).
MJ_ , are you buying or making biodiesel?

Kevin

No Kev, am not brewing my own BD quite yet. :rolleyes:
One of these days maybe but still finding my way around B100.
Is it easy enuf do you know? I currently buy from SA White Oil.

There is a site i just found that talks about what you mentioned.
Incase you are interested, here's the link:

http://forums.biodieselnow.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=1609&whichpage=4

Good thing you didn't have problems starting your cars.
I did Sun. 8 AM right after scraping all the frost off the windows.
But like i said, runs fine now!

Do you find your heaters helpful? I may just get the PS DFS.

Thanx much for your comments.

MJ

Plantman 12-02-2003 08:50 PM

Checsk this story out. If only other states would follow suit, we might be on to something here.


http://12.4.228.47/news/story/12120...odiesel1130.asp

Plantman 12-02-2003 08:55 PM

If that link doesn't work, look under the diesel forum and the thread is:

"Bio-diesel cheapest fuel in Maui"

Jugo Driver#1 12-02-2003 10:23 PM

Ok im new to this. So what you guys are saying is i can burn 100% unmixed Vegetable oil (corn oil in my case) and the car will run fine and i wont hurt nething. If this is true i have some big plans for the future then. This weekend though i plan on unhooking the diesel line off the small fuel filter and sticking it in a corn oil bottle to see what will happen.

Plantman 12-02-2003 11:06 PM

Do a search on biodiesel and you'll see.

FYI, straight veggie oil, or svo is only stay's liquid up until certain temperatures.

I live in Miami and could use SVO without any problems. As it gets colder, you may run into some problems. Nothing major from what I understand. Some others have had their SVO "gel up" and cause cars not to start until they get warmer.

Picture olive oil left in a fridge overnight. It gels up until it gets warmer, than pour on your salad.

There are other variables of course, but I find it very interesting.

Some members run svo and have had no problems.

One great site is veggievan.org

Good luck

Jugo Driver#1 12-02-2003 11:27 PM

So i can give it a shot i just want to make some money off my dad on abet we made this weekend. I will just be running on it maybe 10 minutes

Plantman 12-03-2003 06:45 AM

It would be much easier to just pour a gallon in when it's low on fuel. Your Dad will be surprised at the smell.

Better yet, let it run out of fuel and promptly solve your "problem" by using a gallonof wesson you conceniently have in yoir trunk.


Or, just mix a gallon when you have about a 1/4 tank left.

It will work. I mixed 4.5 gallons to about 3/4 of a tank and the var is quieter and running fine.

Did you try the other forums?

Rick Miley 12-03-2003 11:28 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Jugo Driver#1
So i can give it a shot i just want to make some money off my dad on abet we made this weekend. I will just be running on it maybe 10 minutes
Bet your dad as much as he can afford. This is easy money for you. :D

If you're using corn oil, the exhaust will smell like steaks on a barbecue. It will take a few seconds for the oil to make its way through the fuel filters, but when the exhaust smell changes, then you'll know its working. Post his reaction and your winnings amount after you do it.

Jugo Driver#1 12-03-2003 12:39 PM

Well i cant wait for the car to run out of diesel because its sitting in our garage im doing a mile restoration to it.

BIG QUESTION does the 123 300 D turbo have two fuel pumps or one. Because my idea is just to take the fuel line off the little filter and stick it in the bottle of oil Do i have to worry about diesel squierting out of the line thats unhooked now.?

Rick Miley 12-03-2003 12:45 PM

Just the one pump. You might have some fuel flow from that hose if the level in the tank is really high. Last time I did a Diesel Purge nothing came from the supply hose, but you might want to have something handy to plug it just in case.

Jugo Driver#1 12-03-2003 02:13 PM

Guys I cant believe it. I just ran my moms diesel on svo corn oil to be more specific. I could not believe how quiet the thing got once it started burning the oil. I used a mason jar full of oil and stuck the supply line in i was surprised how quick it was sucking in the oil but i forgot that it was a return style fuel system so after sucking in two jars of oil i hooked the supply line back up so i dont suck air into the ip and then let it run at first nothing special happened and i though uhh it was hyped up story about burning svo but then after a few seconds it just got quiet almost as quiet as a gasoline engine. I was so excited I called my uncle outside to see it run because he also said it would not work. He said they tried it in the army in Yugoslavia in the tanks it it burned too quickly and ran crappy but he was surprised that the benz liked it.


So on to another important question. WHY THE HECK DOESNT THE WHOLE WORLD USE SVO OIL or a mixuture isnt it much cleaner for the world and safer for humans to breathe in the fumes whats the deal?

Oil_burner 12-03-2003 02:22 PM

Jugo Driver ; It is quite simple: $$$$$$$$$$$$$

Habanero 12-03-2003 02:25 PM

Repeat your test in the upper midwest in January and you will have one answer to your question. The engineering has to be there to make sure the oil is at least warm enough to flow. Additionally, it has to be warm enough so that it will not clog the fuel filter. Finally, it has to be hot enough to burn cleanly without coking the combustion chamber.

On that last one, I know several people are burning oil in unheated systems with no apparent ill symptoms, so it may not be as much of an issue. I think it is fair to say the jury is still out on that one. I personally preferred to make sure the oil is plenty warm when it gets to the injector.

Jugo Driver#1 12-03-2003 02:25 PM

Yea but if we had a bunch of people making oil or that algea stuff i read about than it would be cheaper.

danalinscott 12-03-2003 02:30 PM

Jugo...wlecome to the world of renewable fuels.

I suppose the main reason that the whole world does not run on vegoil is ....there is not enough vegoil. And of course..it is more expensive.

Unless you are running on WVO (waste vegoil) from deep fat fryers vegoil is much more expensive than petrodiesel. Runnnig on wvo of course requires that you collect and prefilter the wvo which is much more bother than most folks are willing to accept...when the alternative is to pull into a fuel station and stick the nozzle in the filler neck.

Conversion of your fuel system and a prefilter unit can cost from $250 (if you make it yourself) to $2,000 (for kits).

Of course once you are set up it is nearly as easy to run on vegoil as diesel. I live in MN and have over 30,000 miles on wvo. figuring my costs of conversion and prefiltering my fuel costs me less than a dime a gallon...and it takes about the same time committment to prefiltering wvo as filling at the fuel station...if you have the right rig.

I have developed simple conversion components for those that are the DIY type...and sell the "how to" make them files at my netfirms website. If you are not the DIY tpe (or have more money than you know what to do with) several converion kits are available. Search for Neoteric or Greasel if you want to find these.

And yes...different oils have different exhaust smell. I get my wvo from the loca china buffet and it smells kinda like a barbque going by. Beef one day..pork the next....with a faint background of chicken always.:D

Jugo Driver#1 12-03-2003 02:36 PM

To me though it sounds like the 123 that i have will rune on svo or wvo without any modification it sounds much better on the oil than the diesel oil problem i see is gelling in the cold months but with better glow plugs and a little additive in the oil im sure it would be fine.

danalinscott 12-03-2003 03:04 PM

Well...how well your diesle runs on vegoil depends on several things. In climates where vegoil can get thick..or in my case (MN) solidify a bit of conversion is required...but in tropical climates some diesels will actually start when "cold" on strait vegoil...but lack power unless the oil is thinned by mixing diesel fuel or warming with a fuel heater (either coolant heated or 12vdc). And some problems with upper ring land coking may be experienced eventually if the vegoil visosity is not lowered.

Not as simple as just pouring in vegoil and going..but not very difficult either.

A good forum with friendly participants (much like this one) for finding out more on the subject is at:
http://biodiesel.infopop.cc/6/ubb.x?a=frm&s=447609751&f=159605551

My netfirms site also has a FAQ page for those that don;t want to wade through tons of posts (though the inopop forums archives are pretty simple to search) for answers to basic questions.

Fredmburgess 12-05-2003 05:16 PM

300D +WVO=happy motoring
 
So far so good with my 300D on WVO. I just built my own kit (heated tank in trunk) and start on diesel, switch to WVO after the engine's hot. Right now the car is outside here in upstate New York. It's about 10F out there and I am absolutely certain it will start on diesel and I can switch to WVO in 10 minutes or less. The WVO I get (used soy oil from a chinese place) is thick but still liquid down to about 20F. No big deal since I start and stop on diesel in the winter anyway. In the summer (in PA) I don't bother with diesel. Car will start at 50F and above (with a little smoke) on unheated WVO. I've done about 25,000 miles on WVO - a little less power than diesel but so what and who cares!

Good luck, and you're right, it's better for the environment because the carbon coming out the exhaust was in a plant, not a mile underground, 6 months ago, so no net change.

Ain't diesels fun?!

Fmb

danalinscott 12-05-2003 05:27 PM

Fred...
Do you know how hot the wvo gets before the IP.

I have remote thomometers on my test mule "Bessie" and have found that once the wvo is over 120*F (measutred at the IP inlet) I do not notice any loss of power on wvo. Of course it seems to pick up anouther 10-15 * as it passes through that (stanadyne) IP on my F250.

Congtratulations on your sucessful conversion.:D

Dana

Nuke 12-05-2003 05:37 PM

I really thought you had to process the oil (WVO, Soybean, or whatever) before you should use it, like this. I've done a fair amount of reading on biodiesel and I know I have read that a diesel will run on straight oil, but eventually will have troubles.

danalinscott 12-06-2003 09:44 AM

A diesel engine runs quite well (with some minor modifications to its fuel system..mostly fuel warmers to lower viscosity) on waste fryer oil and fats. Of course you need to prefilter it before you attempt to run it through your engine or it will just clog the filter pretty quickly. This can be relativly simple...takes me about as much time to prefilter an fill up with wvo at home as it takes to fill with diesel at the fuel station.

There is some (fairly old) evidence that if not warmed to lower its viscosity before being injected vegoil can cause long term problems...mostly coking of the upper ring lands. This was especially pronounced on early Direct Injection diesel engines. Indirect Injection diesels are much more tolerant of higher viscosity fuel. But in any case the oil should be warmed in order to allow better combustion and avoid any loss of power.

I am th only person I am aware of that has had my engine "benchmarked" so I could later tear it apart to determin if long term actual use of wvo creates internal deposits..such as ring land coking. I only have 31,000 miles on the test mule so far...and compression tests indicate that no ring land coking is occurring. Regardless of the other indications I will have a head removed at 40,000 miles to check visually for any combustion chamber deposits.

There is some pretty good anecdotal evidence that engine run under constant load using wvo tend to create deposits of (mainly) carbon in the upper combustion chamber. Whereas engines run on wvo/svo under "real world" conditions of different loads and rpms do not. The previous test conducted on wvo fueled diesel engines were done on dielel gensets run at constant load. Sometimes without any fuel system warming modifications.

There is further anecdotal evidence that diesels run for short periods under differnent loads and rpms on diesel fuel, or with LP fumigation quickly burn off any light accumulations of carbon in the upper combustion chamber due to the different flamefront intensitys and burn rates of those fuel/mixtures. This may prevent serious accumulations from occurring. Since the least expensive and most practical conversion to wvo require that the engines be started (when cold) on diesel and shut down (for long periods) after purging wvo from te IP,injector lines, and injectors the problem of carbon accuumulation may not manifest iteself is such "two tank" conversions.

Mercedes diesels seem to have a design very tolerant of vegoil. In very warm climates some have reported being able to simply run on vegoil by puoring it in the stock tank..and not bothering with conversion at all. I don't recomend this...since the existing evidence is that this is exactly what causes carbon accumulations. I suspect that a simple LP fumigation setup might be able to negate this problem...but since unless you live in a very warm climate a two tank system is the only practical and inexpensive way to conavert to wvo...I know of no one that has tried this approach.

I also make biodiesel in small amounts to use as warm weather "purge and start fuel in my wvo conversion(s). Relative to the simple processing that wvo requires (prefiltering) it is much more difficult, expensive, and dangerous. Without amortizing my biodiesel making equipment costs I figure that it cost about $1.60 to make biodiesel..per gallon...for just the materials. Amortizing the cost of my prefilter and wvo conversion wvo fuel costs me less than a dime per gallon. And I spend at least 6 times as much time making biodiesel as I do "making " wvo fuel.

And then there is the problem of making "pure" biodiesel. You have to be very careful to wash out the byproducts created in the reaction or it can damage some diesels quickly. And even the commercial manufacturers occasionally send a bad batch through to the pumps. This has happend often enough in the fledgling US biodiesel inductry to cause VW to release a notice that it will void warrentees in new VW diesels if they can be proven to have used biodiesel..while in Europe (where the industry is a bit older..and better regulated) they actually encourage biodiesel use.

But...we all know that VW does not design as robust and "overengineered" engines/cars as Mercedes. So far I have seen no such "void the warrentee" notice from Daimler.:D

Feel free to contact me directly if you have questions.
Dana
danalinscott@yahoo.com


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