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  #1  
Old 12-11-2003, 06:45 AM
pjl pjl is offline
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om 617a AAARGHH!!

I'm just about at the end of my rope. I've put this engine in my Unimog chassis. I can't get it to start. Everything is hooked up without the cab on (basically to a battery on the shop floor). This engine came to me without having seen it run. I've replaced the crank and bottom end, with new timing chain. I've bled the fuel system, fuel to injectors. I've triple checked the IP start of delivery timing. It cranks over and fires a little. I've tried ether, I've tried the new glowplugs on for up to 25 seconds. I've tried 3 batteries in parallel, 2 in series, not a speedy cranker. It fires on it's own when cranking, when I add ether it almost stops the cranking like it's firing too early, then pushes through. I get smoke coming out the exhaust and breather. Tried adding throttle, and whatever I could think of.


Any ideas?....
PJL

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  #2  
Old 12-11-2003, 06:49 AM
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What is the procedure/settings you used for setting the IP timing?
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  #3  
Old 12-11-2003, 01:47 PM
ForcedInduction
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Re: om 617a AAARGHH!!

Quote:
Originally posted by pjl
...when I add ether it almost stops the cranking like it's firing too early, then pushes through. Any ideas?....
PJL
NEVER use any starting fluid on an indirect injection engine. Very good way to blow up a prechamber.
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  #4  
Old 12-11-2003, 01:55 PM
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Check cranking speed -- must be at least 100 rpm. If not, get a new or properly rebuilt starter (nust have a new armature). Never gonna start otherwise.

In an emergency, there are two way to help out -- either a BIG hairdryer or a LIT propane torch pointed down the air intake to greatly pre-heat the air while cranking. This gets the combustion chamber hot enough to get the fuel to burn.

Or you can wire up the starter for 24 volts -- don't connect the last connection until someone has the key in the start position, then only maintain contact until the engine starts. It's gonna crank like crazy, but more than 30 sec will probably also burn up the starter.

GP can be run for two minutes before attempting to start. I'd also crank with the glowplugs out and the injector lines loose AFTER using the hand pump to completely prime the IP (no air bubbles in the return line from the side of the IP). Crank until no more air comes out, only fuel, then tighten cap nuts and install glow plugs.

It won't start unless you have hot combustion air, fuel injected at the correct time (start of injection by drip tube 24 degrees BTDC), and sufficient cranking speed.

To set injection timing, you need a drip tube from MB or the equivalent -- u-shaped tube installed in #1 pressure valve, with the actual valve removed inside the holder. While supplying pressure to the IP with the hand pump, crank engine around toward the firing stroke on #1. Fuel should run out of the tube through the pump until you reach 24 BTDC, at which point the flow should almost stop. Set excactly, this is one drop per second, falling to nothing as the engine is rotate further. You must then install the pressure valve under the spring in the holder before attempting to start engine.

Edit: You must wire the fuel control rod from the accelerator pedal to the full open position, or the timing will be wrong.

Peter
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1972 220D ?? miles
1988 300E 200,012
1987 300D Turbo killed 9/25/07, 275,000 miles
1985 Volvo 740 GLE Turobodiesel 218,000
1972 280 SE 4.5 165, 000 - It runs!

Last edited by psfred; 12-11-2003 at 04:03 PM.
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  #5  
Old 12-11-2003, 02:58 PM
pjl pjl is offline
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I'll try again

Maybe a new starter is in the cards, it is close to 100 rpm but barely I'd say. I tried it wired for 24 volts, but it didn't crank any faster at the time, maybe an oversight(I've been trying to do this after work in the early hours of the morning)lol. I tried it with a heat gun stuck in the turbo intake, I'm a little worried about putting a torch to the compressor impellor though.
As far as start of delivery...I have read the proper method in the manual, I guess I'll have to try fab a tube. I read someones website somewhere that you could (which I did) remove #1 injector line, leave pressure valve in, rotate engine until evidence of fuel in valve. Maybe too inaccurate, sounded plausible. I'll make a tube and try again. No pressure valve, and using the hand pump.
Thanks for the replies
PJL
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  #6  
Old 12-11-2003, 03:11 PM
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Leaving the pressure valve in and looking for a rise in the fuel will work, but ONLY if you have a clear piece of tubing to watch the fuel level, and even then you are likely to set it late. Drip tube works better. If you cannot find or fab a drip tube, a piece of clear plastic tubing will work, too -- watch the level as you rotate the engine (pressure vavle out) -- when it stops rising, you are at the start of injection.

A drip tube is available on FastLane, I think.

Peter
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1972 220D ?? miles
1988 300E 200,012
1987 300D Turbo killed 9/25/07, 275,000 miles
1985 Volvo 740 GLE Turobodiesel 218,000
1972 280 SE 4.5 165, 000 - It runs!
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Old 12-11-2003, 03:22 PM
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I'm sitting here wondering if you put the injection pump in place with the spline on the pump lined up and the engine at (I think) 27 dbtdc. I am not exactly sure about the 27 dbtdc - I would have to look in my manual when I get home.
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  #8  
Old 12-11-2003, 03:23 PM
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Peter, concerning your statement :
" Fuel should run out of the tube through the pump until you reach 24 BTDC, at which point the flow should almost stop. Set excactly, this is one drop per second, falling to nothing as the engine is "
Sounds more like a description of setting the " END of fuel delivery"... did you mean it to ?
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  #9  
Old 12-11-2003, 04:02 PM
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Leatherman:

With the pressure valve out, what you see is not the pump delivering fuel under pressure but the point where the plunger closes off the fuel fill slot in the sleeve, or more exactly the point where it will start to pressurize the fuel to inject it.

With further rotation of the engine, more fuel will of course be pushed out, but the engine isn't rotating..

I also forgot to mention that the control rod has to be wired down in the full "throttle" posistion, or the injection timing will be wrong.

Peter
__________________
1972 220D ?? miles
1988 300E 200,012
1987 300D Turbo killed 9/25/07, 275,000 miles
1985 Volvo 740 GLE Turobodiesel 218,000
1972 280 SE 4.5 165, 000 - It runs!
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  #10  
Old 12-11-2003, 09:33 PM
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Reading back over this post, I remembered that some injection pumps are incorrectly marked from the factory (Engatwork has the correct manual and can look up which ones they are). They must be installed with the mark on the pump shaft 180 degrees out. Not a problem if you didn't remove the pump and didn't drop the chain putting a new one in.

Peter
__________________
1972 220D ?? miles
1988 300E 200,012
1987 300D Turbo killed 9/25/07, 275,000 miles
1985 Volvo 740 GLE Turobodiesel 218,000
1972 280 SE 4.5 165, 000 - It runs!
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  #11  
Old 12-12-2003, 04:15 AM
pjl pjl is offline
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thanks

I really appreciate the efforts. Today (from your posts) I realized that I should be doing this with the throttle full open. I don't have a fitting to make a drip tool out of, so, I used the #1 line. I removed the pressure valve and spring and left the carrier inside, and set to full throttle. I pumped the hand pump, which leaks but pumps, and rotated the engine over. The flow dropped the elected 1 drop per second approx. 25 1/2 degrees. It quit dripping quickly so hard to judge, I pryed the pump over as much as I could to retard the timing held by the steel lines. Releasing and reattaching the lines after adjustment would help, I guess. I cranked it over with 24 volts (and it turns quickly), I tried the glowplugs(on 12volts) for extended periods, and a heat gun in the intake. I bled the injection lines through cranking and releasing the nuts. Hmmn...what else, oh, I tried scratching my head, then banging it on the bumper, while standing on one foot holding my tongue stuck out on the right and left side, crossed my fingers and toes. Damn it won't start.
Next guess would be a compression tester, pull the injectors for flow test, and if that doesn't work, fill the holes with tnt.
PJL
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  #12  
Old 12-12-2003, 09:59 AM
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Get a new hand pump -- if it leaks when you use it to prime, it sucks air in when the lift pump operates and you have air in the IP -- no start.

You will probably have to re-prime the IP, too when you get the new pump on.

I'd also check the compression -- did you re-set the valves properly?

It can take a while to get a dead engine running again, too. Took us three battery charges on my brother's 300D when we rebuilt the engine.

Peter
__________________
1972 220D ?? miles
1988 300E 200,012
1987 300D Turbo killed 9/25/07, 275,000 miles
1985 Volvo 740 GLE Turobodiesel 218,000
1972 280 SE 4.5 165, 000 - It runs!
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  #13  
Old 12-12-2003, 11:52 AM
pjl pjl is offline
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thanks

I'll have to shut down the project for a couple weeks, moving to our new house this weekend. I was hoping to button it up and drive it over but , well you know.
I'll pick this up again later,
thanks PJL
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  #14  
Old 12-12-2003, 10:53 PM
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Don't forget your basic cam timing. If the new chain slipped a
tooth whilst being rolled in, you can all kinds of grief.
My 2 zents
Dr.D

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