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  #16  
Old 12-17-2003, 02:24 PM
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It costs more because houses are heated by a very simliar thing, fuel oil. Fuel oil can be taken right from a tank of a house and pumped into a vehicle but it is dyed in case the fuel color is ever inspected (pretty nice fines so I hear). Notice how most of the year it is cheaper until winter. If you run a farm the current price of diesel is about $.90/gal, good ole road taxs in my favorite state.

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  #17  
Old 12-18-2003, 02:00 AM
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The refining process can generate either more #2 or more gas from a barrel, depending on how they do it. From mid-summer they begin to crack for heating oil in order to build up stocks for winter - then in winter they switch back to gas to build stocks up for the driving season. Not exact, but about 2 to 1 for whatever they’re cracking for. Heat is 2 c above gas at wholesale right now, which is unusual, even for winter – that could put #2 about a dime over gas in Feb-Mch, - probably both will rise, as they try to subsidize each other.
Bottom line is that all the deregulation of the last 20 years has built the corporate trusts up to just where they were at the turn of the last century – except that this time they’re won’t be any trustbusters. The wolf has bought the henhouse. Liberal or conservative - it’s all a fantasy for the masses. They’re all playing the financial end game – employees and customers don’t count anymore – just quarterly profits for investors
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  #18  
Old 12-18-2003, 08:57 AM
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".....just quarterly profits for investors"

Yeah, and only the big investors. Given a chance, they screw over the little guys. Just look at what they did with the Mutual Funds.
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  #19  
Old 12-18-2003, 12:47 PM
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For the record, any Volkswagen dealer in the State of California will be happy to sell you a TDI Golf. You can buy diesels here but Mercedes chooses not to certify them (which I grant is not easy).

I agree with BoostenBenz that if you compare a "clean" SUV that consumes twice the fuel of a slightly more "polluting" car, it's the SUV that pollutes more. Unfortunately, the auto and oil companies have no incentive to encourage efficency. The next oil shock will take care of that just like it did in the 70s. It's too bad the US auto companies aren't smart enough not to set themselves up to hand over a big chunk of their market share to foreign manufacturers - again.

The price of diesel is as market driven as anything else we buy. The laws of supply and demand are pretty fundamental to market pricing and with the oil companies able to influence supply, prices will always tend to remain just below or at the limit of political/consumer price resistance. This may be an odd comparison but consider also that we pay the same price for skim vs. whole milk yet the cost to produce skim is considerably less. The price we pay for skim is driven more by the supply and our willingness to pay than by the cost of production. The same is principle applies oil distillates.

As to diesel particulates, no argument that they are nasty and not good to breathe. However, if in total a well cared for diesel pollutes less than the guzzling Hummer then we are better off with the diesels. If the government wants to eliminate diesels on the grounds of their pollution output, to be fair they should also eliminate any non commercial truck (aka. SUV) at the same time. It also strikes me that there is a very high percentage of diesels in Europe and I don't believe the incidence of heart disease is substantially higher there than here. These stories may help sell newspapers but they seldom mean much in real life.
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  #20  
Old 12-18-2003, 01:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by lrg
Unfortunately, the auto and oil companies have no incentive to encourage efficency. The next oil shock will take care of that just like it did in the 70s.
Not true, if anything they are reaping money from the greedy SUV buyers. All of the SUVs are huge moneymakers, we are talking $10k or more per vehicle for the more expensive ones (especially Cadillac). However they barely break even on something like the Chevy Cavalier. Well why keep making the cavalier then? Simple the government mandates that their fleet must have a certain average economy. So even if a car loses money they'll keep making it so they can rake it in big time on the SUVs. It is like taxing cigarettes, eventually if you pay enough you might consider quiting until then somebody is going to get rich off of your stupidity.
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  #21  
Old 12-18-2003, 02:13 PM
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Quote:
The price of diesel is as market driven as anything else we buy. The laws of supply and demand are pretty fundamental to market pricing
Theoretically, but demand rules the market place and can be artificially created with advertising. Supply and cost of production more influences what will be marketed, or hyped to the public. Remember that book “The Media is the Message” – well it’s all come true. Do you really think prescription drugs need to be marketed to anyone but medical professionals – well the new pills can be $10 each – How much of that goes to TV adds, or how much of the price of a Hummer on a per unit basis is needed to pay for all the hype????

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Don't blame the automakes, its the buying public that drives them to build what they do.
Well Ann Rand would say so, but – People just want to feel good and have a sense of freedom and that’s the message the SUV ads have. When I’m out in the woods I don’t see any – they’re all at home trying to pay off the note. They could just as easily market the idea that not being in debt and having the time to play a little bit from all the money they’d save by driving an old Merc Diesel – but they’d go broke, and without keeping people strapped to debt the whole economy is toast.

Jeff M. has got it right, but I’d add that the whole market is a created thing.

"None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free."
(Johann Wolfgang von Goethe)
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  #22  
Old 12-18-2003, 02:29 PM
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Jeff,
That's my point exactly. The auto companies make what makes them money today. Unfortunately when the market turns they are left high and dry. No one wanted small cars in the 70s until gas prices more than doubled. Companies like Toyota and Honda are smart enough to keep investing in their small sedans so if/when a change comes they have a decent product to sell. Ford, as an example, has put almost no $/effort into updating the Taurus and will loose out to Camrys and Accords if consumer choices change. I can't blame the companies for making as much profit as possible, it's just that their reluctance to invest some of that profit to better their business down the road is worrysome. Toyota and Honda do it. Why not Ford and GM? Trace the histories of those four companies over the last 50 years and it's obvious the Japanese aren't making stupid decisions.
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  #23  
Old 12-18-2003, 02:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by TheVirginiaDude
Blame the average consumer for getting exactly what they asked for from the manufacturers, don't blame the manufacturers for building exactly what most people want to buy.
While this is very true they are the same companies who make people want people to want these SUVs. It is quite the circle, all started with advertising. Since the idea of an SUV is a newer one it is much easier to get people to believe they cost that much more to build, but let's say the perspective changes in a few years do you think SUVs will be selling for $14k and cars starting at $38k? Would you rather make $750 per car like the Cavalier or $12,000 per Escalade? Of course they'll market for the Escalade before the Cavalier. Reminds me of the new VW. They try to get huge money out of it but it is a VW, it still has problems well probably more than other VWs, but they try to get people to think it is worth it none the less.
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  #24  
Old 12-18-2003, 03:01 PM
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by lrg
[B]For the record, any Volkswagen dealer in the State of California will be happy to sell you a TDI Golf. You can buy diesels here but Mercedes chooses not to certify them (which I grant is not easy).
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From Nov. 03 issue of Popular Mechanics pg. 96,article- "Diesel futures" :

"Despite current diesel technology, the engines future is cloudy. California emissions regulations prevent the sale of diesels there."

lrg, you should know, you live there, but can you verify your statement ? PM could be wrong ...I just want to know.

The same article goes on to say: "In 2004, the federal emissions standards for diesels get appreciably tougher." And then on pg. 98 they feature the GM Opel ECO- Speedster with a top speed of 159.53 mph and a recorded 92.6 mpg fuel economy !
The car is obviously an experimental type vehicle, but there is still something wrong with this whole scenario, if you know what I mean.
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  #25  
Old 12-18-2003, 03:28 PM
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Brad,
A friend just bought a brand new TDI from a local dealer. It's possible that next year it's a different story but as of a week ago you could still get them.

Virginia Dude,
Remember, Thomas Jefferson was thought to be a liberal in his day. If it weren't for those liberals we'd be still be paying taxes to the British!
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  #26  
Old 12-18-2003, 04:02 PM
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This is rapidly turning into something that should be moved to the General Discussion I suppose. I’m a 57 yr. old Futures Trader and religiously don’t pay to much attention while the market is open - still I have to watch what orders go off – and this is just a little distraction for me. It would be interesting to know how old and what everybody does that’s on this thread.
I will argue till the sun goes out that demand is a created fashion, and that only in a recognized crisis is demand driven by need. Recognized is the key operative word, and a crisis can be, itself - created artificially. It’s all relative to disposable income of course, but lately business makes more profit by selling to upper middle income, and less on volume necessities to everyone. Well there is Wal-Mart, but low-income people have fallen off the statistical charts in the US.
It’s not a large % of the public that’s in the market. How many people are re-arranging their entertainment center so they can hang a TV on the wall? There’s a lot more people living East of the 405, but if you watched TV you’d think everyone lived in Marina del Rey or West LA – that’s who is being marketed too.
Sure the Auto companies monitor trends – maybe they noticed that it was chic in the early eighties for the Hollywood Production crowd to drive an old beater Chevy Suburbans, and that trucks were way cheap and didn’t have all the emission and safety issues at manufacture. They were deep into getting everybody in a mini van back then, but what could be next? Like the designers periodically switch into 3 button suits or vested suits – the auto industry depends on switching peoples taste – so from the cheapest ride (basic pick up truck) to the new status symbol – biggest profit margin ever. What’s next? It’s obvious – The Chinese ride bikes and they’re doing great – I think we can justify $3000 or $4000 for an elegant practical – can’t afford anything else – Bicycle - Final Bell
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  #27  
Old 12-18-2003, 08:44 PM
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lrg,

Thank you for the correction. PM and myself stand corrected...one can still buy a Diesel auto in the great state of CA.
Perhaps PM was referring to 2004 ???
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Whatever the case may be, I think we can all agree, that the powers that be, are making it more difficult to produce/sell diesel powered vehicles in this country. Publishing stories about how DANGEROUS diesel exhaust is would appear to be part of the plot of extinction.

How about the silly CA electric car quota attempt ? What about the MTBE fiasco...that has turned out to be a groundwater pollution nightmare that may last for decades ! I'd rather breath a few diesel particulates than drink water with benzene in it. Is it all really about pollution control or is it about greed, power and control ?

By the way, Silica(sand) can cause Silicosis of the lungs if inhaled...CA has some great beaches covered with this dangerous substance... it seems like the EPA and CARB should do something about this "horrible" situation. How about a sand tax to pay for respirators for all to wear while at the beach...that should be fun...
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  #28  
Old 12-19-2003, 03:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by TheVirginiaDude
The SUV is not a new one, it just gained recent popularity. Willys Overland made the first sport utility veicle around 1948 with a 4 wheel drive station wagon through the early 60's. AMC made the Eagles around 1980ish.
Yeah, and they weren't sold all that widely, weren't heavily advertised and people who owned them used them for truly off-road work (like on a farm) rather than the majority of off-roading I see SUVs doing these days: pulling to the shoulder to check the map.

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Originally posted by TheVirginiaDude
You make it sound like people are stupid and brain washed.
Really? They're not? :p (Joke! Just a joke!)

Quote:
Originally posted by TheVirginiaDude
I think people know what they want and the liberals set on brainwashing the public to get what they think the public should get.
I worked for a PR firm. A big one. No liberals in the crowd except for me and my boss. Two former speech writers for Nixon, for example. They GLOATED over successful campaigns for the French Nuclear Power industry, for Marlboro Cigarrettes, for lobbying to prevent nascent recycling laws in some municipality....the list goes on and on. Several people told me how great it was to invest in advertising agencies ("Otherwise, how would people know what to buy? Or worse, they wouldn't buy anything. We have to create desire, otherwise America would die." ---Yes, that was a direct quotation.--) and tobacco companies ("No loss of profits there, once someone smokes, they'll always be buying it.")

Quote:
Originally posted by TheVirginiaDude
Most people buy SUV's because they want them, No amount of advertising will convince them to buy something they don't want.
Hmmm. See above.

Quote:
Originally posted by TheVirginiaDude
Tiny fuel efficient death traps are an example that comes to mind. Left wingers try to convince everyone they should be driving thaem but nobody wants to drive them, not even the liberals. If that was true whatever percent of the public were liberal would be buying econoboxes and that clearly is not happening.
Right now, there are few "econoboxes" for sale. In fact, even the so-called economy cars out there aren't as good as the ones from 20 years ago. I knew someone who drove a 1983 (?) Honda for years because it got 40 mpg and she couldn't find another w/ mileage as good. (She died before finding another one, at the age of 76, four years ago.)

As I recall, it was The Bug, a cheap and friendly car for the times, that made VWs reputation in this country.


And, OT but it might be useful, you might want to check out a more complex definition of liberal than the one I suspect you're using. Go on, take the test: www.politicalcompass.org There was a thread about this on the Open Discussion a while back. Cool site.
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  #29  
Old 12-19-2003, 04:18 PM
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When the typical SUV weighs around 5000lb it is hard to stomach the idea of driving something weighing 2500lb. Momentum doens't favor the little one.

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[. . . ]rather than the majority of off-roading I see SUVs doing these days: pulling to the shoulder to check the map.
The majority of the ones I see today are running over the curb or driving off the road (is that what they mean by off road vehicle?) while talking on their cell phone and eating at the same time while putting on makeup and reading the newspaper.
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  #30  
Old 12-20-2003, 11:33 AM
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Arrow OK, now I'm totally abetting this OT topic.

Quote:
Originally posted by TheVirginiaDude
My definition of Liberal is nearly everyone inclined to vote Democrat or Libratarian.
Really? I'll have to tell William Safire that the next time I see him...paleo-conservative and self-proclaimed Libertarian!

Quote:
Originally posted by TheVirginiaDude
But I still believe people want SUV's because it makes them feel big and important looking down on the smaller cars...
Gotta agree with you there. A little over a year ago, as I was driving through West Texas (spectacular country, by the way, I love the open sky of the plains), I heard an ad on the radio station I was getting: "Do you feel small in your truck? Bring your truck into [somebody's...can't remember the name of the guy] Truck Raising Shop. We can make your rig walk tall....." And I wondered about the guys this ad appealed to.

Quote:
Originally posted by TheVirginiaDude
And a lot are the soccer moms and the like, hauling kids and stuff, A minivan is all the need (or station wagon) but they feel big and important (even if they aren't) in a hulking monstrosity.
Yeah, I think you're right. I also have noticed that the more 'over-protective' (read: jealous-types) guys I know tend to get these for their wives. And, (WARNING: SWEEPING GENERALIZATION AHEAD!!) over-protective guys are married to insecure, flibberty-gibbet women who are generally less-than-great drivers. (Have you ever known an insecure person who was a GOOD driver? Nope, me neither.) And I don't fancy putting a poor driver into a big vehicle with a high center of gravity.

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