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  #1  
Old 02-01-2004, 09:21 AM
JMH JMH is offline
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injector pump swap

Okay, I am frustrated.

I am swapping a blown 1983 240D engine with a 1978 240D engine that was running when we took it out of the 1978. I have swapped all accessories out and have the motor rigged with starter, flywheel etc. trying to get it started before I put it in the 1983 model.

Part of the challenge was the donor car was standard and the new car automatic, so we swapped Injector Pump out.

I don't totally understand the "start of delivery" process but I did align the mark on the pump with it's missing teeth on the shaft and inserted it, being careful to not turn the sleeve/shaft coupler while installing and I also had the crank set to 24BTDC. So far so good. I took out the #1 cylinder valve and spring and hand cranked the motor to get the fuel to spurt out. It did but it seemed to spurt after the 24btdc mark on the crank... like it's injecting too late. When we tried starting it with the electric starter, a fog of unburned diesel mist came out the exhaust manifold... obviously the timing is off but I am unsure of how to get it right from here. I do believe the air is out of the system as the return line I set up (using clear plastic tubing is free of air bubbles.

Any ideas? I don't have the start of delivery tool, perhaps I should sacrifice the old engine's injection line and make one... but is there something any of you injection timing experts would recommend? I am about to tell my friend that I've done all I can do and to get a professional on the job to set it before we put it back in.

.... oh, and one more question, the 240D automatic transmission torque converter has two flimsy ears that appear to insert into the pump on the front of the transmission. If one of those ears is broken off, will that torque converter still be able to run the pump without a problem? We unbolted the torque converter but the nose on the TC inserts about 2" into the flywheel and apparently it was rusty enough to get hung up and came out with the engine. Unsure if we broke it but probably did. Any tips there would be appreciated too.

Thanks,
John
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Old 02-01-2004, 11:22 AM
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John

When you installed the IP it was at 24 degrees BTDC, right .. I use the bubble method. easy and no mess. Here is an old post

Met an old German MB mechanic today and he taught me a very cool way to time my 240D. He used to have a big shop down in or near Palo Alto Ca and is now retired. I mentioned that I never did quite get the timing squared away after I did a timing chain. hd gasget & cam. The car runs good and sounds good but I was never quite sure I had that “drip method” down. Anyway his comment was something like “screw dat drip stuff, I’ll show you how to time dat pump der easy way” and it was very slick, if I can explain
it. Rotate the engine to the 24 degree mark. Left side of the car facing der pump, there is a fuel line going from the upper left portion of the pump to the fuel filter. Disconnect it at the pump and rig another hose, I or 2 feet long, on the banjo fitting and reconnect it back to the pump. Use a clean piece if hose cause your gona blow through it, yes with your lips on it. Now take all the high pressure pipes off. DISCONNECT the vacuum line from the 1k Now pull the little valve out of number one and replace the spring just like in the drip method. Now attach a piece of high pressure pipe with another piece of hose on it 1 or 2 feet long, to number one and place the end in a vodka bottle full of water. (actually we used a canning jar). If your pump is in time the bubbles will stop at 24 degrees when you blow through the hose attached to the pump. If not you adjust accordingly. Now I have seen whats referred to as the bubble method and maybe this is that method and everyone already knows about it but this was news to me so I wanted to pass it along as its very easy and according der “German’ much superior to the drip method. We did it with a couple of other pumps on the bench just for fun.
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1985 Euro 300TD 5 spd 220K
1985 Euro 240D 5 spd 130K
1979 240D 5 spd, 40K on engine rebuild
1994 Dodge/Cummins, 5 spd, 121K
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Old 02-01-2004, 11:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Stevo


Left side of the car facing der pump, there is a fuel line going from the upper left portion of the pump to the fuel filter. Disconnect it at the pump and rig another hose, I or 2 feet long, on the banjo fitting and reconnect it back to the pump.


DISCONNECT the vacuum line from the 1k.

I liked the sound of this method the first time I read it, however, I am still a bit confused by it. If you disconnect the line at the pump, where exactly to you rig another hose, 1 or 2 feet long and connect it to the banjo fitting? The banjo fitting is on the top of the fuel filter, correct? Steve, could you kindly explain this in more detail.


Maybe I'm a moron but, what exactly is the "1k" in the aforementioned quote.


This sounds like an excellent method, but, you clearly must get it just right
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Old 02-01-2004, 11:55 AM
LarryBible
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The method sounds great as long as the taste and smell of diesel fuel doesn't bother you.

One comment though. Any time you do anything significant with the IP, connect a vacuum source and apply vacuum to the shutoff valve. Once vac is applied the stop lever should move. If it does NOT move, DO NOT START THE ENGINE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! If the stop lever doesn't move, it means that the governor is not contained and the engine will run away at max RPM.

The other precaution is to have a 17MM open end wrench in your hand when you start the engine. If the engine does run away, start loosening injector lines to release pressure to kill the engine. Don't rely on covering the air filter snout, it won't kill the engine. Been there, done that.

Good luck,
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Old 02-01-2004, 01:32 PM
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Brian

OK maybe I can explain it better. I just did it on an engine I'm assembling. The other hose comes off #1, just like you did the "drip" method, hook it up on a short piece of injector line. You can blow air through either way. I have a short piece of hose rigged up with a banjo fitting to go on the fitting to the filter and another hose with the injector line all stowed away for when I need to time another IP. Dont forget to DISCONNECT the vacuum line and also HEED Larrys advice. His story is a sad one.

You are not a moron, If I could rig it up in front of you, you would see right away....When you get it rigged up start blowing bubbles at around 40 - 50 degrees BTDC (compression stroke) and see where they stop. Adjust the pump, go around and see if you went the right way. Let me know how your doing.

Steve
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Old 02-01-2004, 01:42 PM
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Larry

"The method sounds great as long as the taste and smell of diesel fuel doesn't bother you."

No, No you are spoz to blow on the hose therefore you dont get to taste it. Actually there is no mess involved at all. I remember when I was trying to figure out the drip method and spilling the little can that I was collecting the "dripped" fuel in. I guess you could spill the can of water tho.

Steve
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1985 Euro 300TD 5 spd 220K
1985 Euro 240D 5 spd 130K
1979 240D 5 spd, 40K on engine rebuild
1994 Dodge/Cummins, 5 spd, 121K
1964 Allice Chalmers D15 tractor
2014 Kubota L3800 tractor
1964 VW bug

"Lifes too short to drive a boring car"
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Old 02-01-2004, 01:47 PM
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And of course the valve positions in #1 cylinder were checked to make sure the IP was not put in 180 degrees off? Don't laugh, I've done it with a friend's car
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  #8  
Old 02-01-2004, 01:52 PM
JMH JMH is offline
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ip swapout & timing

Okay, I'll admit it, I'm still confused.

At 24 btdc, the camshaft should show both lobes off of the valve rockers. That means the air has already been taken in via the intake valve and the fuel should be injected at 24 btdc right? Then as the mixture gets compressed and the piston travels to 0 TDC, that is when you get the firing from the heat of compression that then via expansion causes the piston to travel downward. So I guess if all of the preceeding is correct, then how do I adjust the timing of #1 injector to be at 24 btdc if it is not set there now the way it is? By turning the pump itself? If the squirt of fuel out of #1 injector is too late, i.e. after the piston is at the top, which way do I turn the pump to get it to be retarded somewhat so it gets fuel spray at the right time or at least closer to the right time?
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Old 02-01-2004, 02:07 PM
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You got both lobes of the cam at #1 toward the top of the cam cover?
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Old 02-01-2004, 02:18 PM
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At the compression stroke the #1 cam lobs are "upish", right.

OK if you have bubbles at, say 40 degrees, you are turning the engine real slow and blowing bubbles and the bubbles stop at, say, at 30 degrees, that would mean you would advance the pump a little, push it TOWARD the engine and go around again, if you adjusted it the wrong way you will know it next time around. Did you get the hoses rigged?

jbaj007...... And of course the valve positions in #1 cylinder were checked to make sure the IP was not put in 180 degrees off? Don't laugh, I've done it with a friend's car
Ya I did that one too

Steve
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  #11  
Old 02-01-2004, 02:30 PM
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Stevo,

I'm clear about the section of pipe and the hose that goes in the vodka bottle. This is setup on the #1 position on the pump. So far so good.

The problem with my understanding is where you have disconnected the line from the pump, installed a section of tubing to the banjo fitting and reconnected the line to the pump.

It seem to me that something must be disconnected, either the tube that attaches to the pump or the other end of the tube that attaches to the banjo fitting. If you have installed a section of tube to blow into, you blow into one end and the other end presumably is on the banjo fitting. This leaves the line from the pump to the banjo fitting disconnected, or am I just not understanding it?

Exactly which vacuum line gets disconnected?

Thanks for the clarification.
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  #12  
Old 02-01-2004, 02:50 PM
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Were almost there. The other hose is attached to the pump one way or another. I have a hose with a bango fitting that i screw into the pump where I disconnected the one to the filter. You could use the line thats already there (disconnect the other end) but that seemed a bit awkward. I will be taking off shortly for a party and will check in when I get home.
Steve
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  #13  
Old 02-01-2004, 03:00 PM
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"Exactly which vacuum line gets disconnected?"

Oh, you have the engine out so you dont have the vacuum line hooked up. Its the one to the stop switch on the back end of the pump. Good luck, hang in there. I would take a pic for you but my camera is TU.
Steve
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  #14  
Old 02-01-2004, 04:33 PM
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Thanks Stevo for the clarification. One hose goes to the pump. You blow into that hose. It is the same hose that comes from the banjo fitting.

The other hose comes from the #1 hole on the injector and goes into a container of water.

The vacuum line on the back of the pump for the stop switch gets disconnected.

My 617 is still running nicely in the 126. I would like to time it using this method when it warms up bit here. I was never sure what I got with the drip method.

BTW, how come the vacuum line needs to be disconnected if the engine is not running
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Old 02-01-2004, 04:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Stevo
OK if you have bubbles at, say 40 degrees, you are turning the engine real slow and blowing bubbles and the bubbles stop at, say, at 30 degrees, that would mean you would advance the pump a little, push it TOWARD the engine and go around again

Steve
If you have bubbles at 40 and you are rotating the engine real slow and the bubbles stop at say 30 degrees, then the timing is too far advanced, correct?

If the above is correct, and you want the engine at 24 degrees, then wouldn't you want to retard the timing slightly and push the pump AWAY from the engine and go around again?

Stevo, help please
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