Opinions on Ram/Cummins or Chevy 6.5L - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

TomJ · #1 04-25-2004, 02:17 PM

Am looking at trading a gasser truck I inherited for either a '94 and later Ram 5.9 Cummins or a '95 Chev 2500 6.5L TD.

Any opinions from those who own either of these?

Have heard the Ram goes through trannys about as often as tires and the Chevy blows IP's (or controllers, THEN the IP goes!) and the Chev can't haul it's own weight?

psfred · #2 04-25-2004, 02:41 PM

All pickup truck diesel engines, IMHO, are grossly derated to keep the drivetrain intact. The obvious solution (to my mind) is to either buy the correct truck for heavy use (one ton dual rear end with split axle ratio) or keep your foot out of it while towing. The standard drivetrain just isn't up to snuff. True for ALL 3/4 ton and ligher trucks, none will hold up. The "big" Cummins is rated at something like 600 hp and 1400 ft/lbs torque in large truck applications, for instance. Easy to get more power, but then something will break, including the truck frame since the truck is built for light use.

As for engines, the consensus around here is that Cummins is much more desireable than the others, with the Ford Powerstrokes #2 (unless you are a die-hard Chevy fan, in which case I suppose you just eat the IPs regularly). All of them have peculiarities, but long term the Cummins seems to run forever with the least trouble. The older Internationals Dodge used do too, but I don't know if the new ones are the same.

For normal use (no towing greater than GVW), any will work. For heavy towing (greater than 5000 lbs trailer weigth), get a tougher truck.

Peter

suginami · #3 04-25-2004, 02:43 PM

I have a good friend whose retired parents own a middle 90's duallie Dodge Ram truck with the inline-6 Cummins diesel. I think it is an HD or a 2500 model. I just don't remember.

They tow a rather large 5th wheel trailer, and spend most of the year travelling all over the U.S. and Canada.

Last I heard, they had over 300,000 miles, and have experienced no engine / trans. problems.

My friend works for Aurora Casket Company, and delivers caskets for a living to mortuaries. The truck is a Dodge with a Cummins inline-6 diesel. I don't know if it is the same engine that is in the Ram pickup trucks, but the delivery truck went over 500,000 miles until he was forced to trade it in on a new model about 6 months ago.

The Warden · #4 04-25-2004, 02:56 PM

Tom, the Cummins 6BT is about as reliable as an OM616. There are a few examples out there that have broken the 1,000,000 mile mark without any major maintenance.

If you're willing to drive a 5 speed, you'd be better off going manual...but that's probably true of the bowtie as well; most "early" truck diesels eat automatics for lunch regardless of make.

I know that this is Dodge vs Ford, but take a look at my first post on this thread. I'm actually (slowly; I've been really busy with school) working on putting together a webpage detailing the history and advantages/disadvantages of both Dodge and Ford diesels.

Between the power differences (I don't know the torque numbers, but i don't think the 6.5l ever broke 200 horsepower), the reliability(as mentioned, 6.5l's eat IP's for breakfast), and the longevity, IMHO there's no comparison between Dodge and Chevy...get the Dodge

#5 04-25-2004, 03:47 PM

I have the Dodge with the Cummins. It is hands down, the best truck I've ever bought. 102,500 miles on the odometer now, and the truck has had only one thing break - the A/C compressor.
It's the first vehicle that I've ever bought, that I've kept beyond 100k. I intend to keep it at least another 400k.

A bit of history on the Chev. The 6.5L engine is an indirect injection design built by detroit diesel (a GM company back then), for use in the pickups. Pumps are stanadyne units that seem to have recurring problems, despite numerous redesigns.

The 6BT Cummins engine is a medium duty truck engine that was simply plopped under the hood of a pickup truck after a bit of detuning. It will out last the truck with little more than routine maintenance. There is one caveat. The ISB designated engines (like the one I have) with electronic controls do not tolerate their rotary injection pumps being run dry. This causes premature failure. The work around is simple. When replacing the fuel filter, insure that the system is reprimed and full of fuel before restarting the truck. If it does stall, loosen the supply line at the pump, and reprime again, tightening the banjo bolt when fuel begins to leak around it.

TimFreeh · #6 04-25-2004, 04:49 PM

I have over 100K miles of Cummins 6BT ownership experices and the engine is, without a doubt, the most impressive engine I've ever owned.

The only real downside is its not very refined compared to the 6.5 Chevy turbo but it is clearly built to an entirely different standard. As I recall Cummins certifies the engine for use in chassis up to 66,000 lbs combined weight.

It's the Mercedes-Benz of Diesel pickup engines. I do agree with Psfred, many people use pickups to pull loads that are more suited to a light duty heavier truck.

psfred · #7 04-25-2004, 06:11 PM

Use a "sulfer replacement" type diesel additive in those VE rotary distributor pumps, too -- I'm pulling the one of the Volvo again (after 50,000 miles) for work. Won't start, only spits fuel, no mist.....

I've heard of a number of engines "needing a rebuild" that suddenly run fine when the VE pump is rebuilt -- suddenly they start, don't smoke, and get much better milage.

Rumor has it that Detroit built a MUCH better small (pickup) truck engine for GM, but both they and Ford turned it down because it was too expensive (about $3500 per vehicle). Much more like a Benz engine -- prechamber, variable injection timing, high rpm engine, much better suited to the typical pickup use. It's still around, maybe it will magically re-appear instead of a 1953 Hemi tarted up with EFI -- it still has the canted pushrods and six inch rocker arms..... I can't wait until the pushrods start popping out through the valve covers!

Peter

TomJ · #8 04-25-2004, 06:18 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by TimFreeh
I have over 100K miles of Cummins 6BT ownership experices and the engine is, without a doubt, the most impressive engine I've ever owned.

The only real downside is its not very refined compared to the 6.5 Chevy turbo but it is clearly built to an entirely different standard. As I recall Cummins certifies the engine for use in chassis up to 66,000 lbs combined weight.

It's the Mercedes-Benz of Diesel pickup engines. I do agree with Psfred, many people use pickups to pull loads that are more suited to a light duty heavier truck.

OK, but the question was more to the rest of the chassis, cab, tranny, etc. problems. Have heard the Ram auto's are crap. Can't find a manual anywhere.

BTW, am NOT looking at new as there is no way in H**L I could afford anything close to that. Looking at '94-'98 Ram or Chevy.

As far as the load hauling, I towed a older style 24ft 6,000lb trailer back and forth accross the country with a 1/2-ton chassis Jeep Wagoneer (1974 vintage) for years, contracting anywhere that would pay a few $'s more/hour.

Now someone's telling me a 3/4 ton chassis modern vehicle ain't gonna hold up?? Guess I'll go back to a mid-70's 1/2-ton Jeep wagoneer then. At least it could do 378,000 miles (one engine build, one tranny and a T-case chain) towing, hauling, 4-wheeling and generally being b*tch slapped from coast to coast.

psfred · #9 04-25-2004, 06:47 PM

None of the automatics will hold up to the diesel engine's torque unless handled VERY gently, and even then probably have limited life.

Get a 5-speed, you won't regret it. Saves fuel, and if you get a beefy one, will last forever.

Towing heavy trailers with light duty transmissions won't work -- they get overloaded every time. Diesels produce prodigous torque, and the trannies inevitably slip too much, wearing the clutches out.

Peter

TomJ · #10 04-25-2004, 07:46 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by psfred
None of the automatics will hold up to the diesel engine's torque unless handled VERY gently, and even then probably have limited life.

Get a 5-speed, you won't regret it. Saves fuel, and if you get a beefy one, will last forever.

Towing heavy trailers with light duty transmissions won't work -- they get overloaded every time. Diesels produce prodigous torque, and the trannies inevitably slip too much, wearing the clutches out.

Peter

Well, it seems that's a mfg issue, NOT a tranny issue. To explain; You wouldn't put a Toyota auto behind a 454 chev, you'd biuld a transmission that could handle the output of the given engine. There ARE truck autos out there that CAN handle the torque, they just build them to handle it. The problem appears to be GM/Dodge using transmissions that are not SUITED to the application.

They positively can build an auto that could handle the torque of a diesel, they just don't, apparently.

Would LOVE a 5-speed, but finding a long bed but std cab USED diesel pickup with one is like trying to find an honest politician. Well, except we KNOW they at least made the pickup!

#11 04-25-2004, 08:20 PM

OK, you wanna make a Dodge automatic live? This is how you do it. First, if the previous owner hasn't done so, then get a shift kit for it. The best place I can tell you to go to get the right one is the TDR website, ( http://www.turbodieselregister.com/ ). These guys know how to make these trannies live, even behind MASSIVELY built engines. Then you buy the LARGEST tranny cooler you can find and fit in the truck. Make sure that you run it in tandem with the one already installed. Finallly, when you are towing, NEVER, NEVER, NEVER tow with it in OD. The OD units in these trannies were tacked in way back in the rear of the tranny, and were not lubed well enough to dissipate the heat they generated while towing. The result was a grenading OD planetary gearset. This means you are not going to be Speedy Gonzales on the highway while towing. If this is a problem, then look for an early model with a 3 speed auto.

Otherwise, I'd say be patient, or expand your search area. You will be happier with alot less fuss with a 5 speed stick. The GM automatic will be no better option, as they were worse reliability wise than the Dodge.

Chassis wise, if you find one that has been taken care of, it will be fine. Using mine as an example, you would be hard pressed to tell visually that my truck has 100K on the clock. I don't have a single squieak, rattle, or chatter in my truck to be found anywhere. Chrysler had issues initially with not making the frames quite strong enough for the engine, and was twisting them. They had this fixed by the new body style (94).

lietuviai · #12 04-25-2004, 08:22 PM

Tom, GM's with the new Duramax engine have been out for at least a couple of years now so there's a chance there may be one out there with your name on it. From what I hear the Duramax is a good engine and I think they are available with an Allison automatic transmission which is a company known for building HD transmissions.
The 6.5/6.2 diesels have their faults but I've heard that the IP's are easy to work on or at least cheap to replace should you need to.

The Warden · #13 04-25-2004, 08:38 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by lietuviai
From what I hear the Duramax is a good engine

...until the aluminum heads warp

(hasn't happened yet, but as far as I'm concerned, it's just a matter of time)

Quote:

The 6.5/6.2 diesels have their faults but I've heard that the IP's are easy to work on or at least cheap to replace should you need to.

According to Diesel Injection Service, a rebuilt 6.2l pump is $397. A non-electronic 6.5l pump is $660, and an electronic ('94 and later) 6.5l pump is $1010

I'm just wondering, is there a reason you're looking primarily at Dodge and GM? Ford's not too bad; I wouldn't call the Powerstroke as reliable as the Cummins, but it's head and shoulders above the 6.2l/6.5l. Unfortunately, they have the same tranny issues that Dodge and GM have, although it is possible to beef them up in a similar manner as Diesel Power mentioned on the Dodge auto.

I still think yuo'd be happiest with the Dodge, although I would consider Ford as a second choice...

Just my $.02 FWIW

lietuviai · #14 04-25-2004, 08:41 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by The Warden
According to Diesel Injection Service, a rebuilt 6.2l pump is $397. A non-electronic 6.5l pump is $660, and an electronic ('94 and later) 6.5l pump is $1010

I stand corrected.

Forget the 6.2/6.5. No wonder why they're selling so cheap in my area.

TomJ · #15 04-25-2004, 10:51 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by The Warden
........I'm just wondering, is there a reason you're looking primarily at Dodge and GM? Ford's not too bad; .......

Well...., the truck I'll be trading on it is my Dads 3/4 Chevy 454, 4X4 LB, Ext Cab, 59k, that he can no longer drive due to a stroke.

He was very proud to be able to give me his pride and joy. Trade this in on a Ford? He had a stroke, but he can still pull a trigger!

Having worked on them all and many Fords in my day, I've developed an aversion to them. The trucks are made well and the powerstroke has a good rep, but it's still a F**d.