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  #31  
Old 05-02-2004, 03:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by crash9

Is this alarmist – maybe – Our whole way of life depends on people spending – not conserving. Ask yourself why CEO’s are sucking company’s dry in the last few years. If a full set of data were out there people would change their spending patterns and the dog would catch his tail.

It's not alarmist at all. It is just the facts. Unfortunately, people are generally too stupid to accept the facts. The full set of data is out there for anybody to read and it clearly shows the consumption of energy in this country is out of control. It is just amazing that the oil producing countries have kept a barrell of oil as low as it has been all these years.

People respond to their wallets. Period. If gas goes up to $3.00 per gallon, consumption of gasoline will decline. Period. And, make no mistake about it. It will go up to $3.00 per gallon. The government could add a tax of $1.00 to make it $3.00 right now and start the inevitable reduction in gasoline consumption. Or, the free market, with a generally fixed supply of crude oil, will speak and the price will go up to $3.00 per gallon as the developing countries continue to need more crude oil for themselves.

I am in the business of making specially designed balancing tooling which requires the use of a lot of steel. The cost of steel has always been about $.40 to $.50 per pound, no matter what type of steel you buy. In the last six months, the price has DOUBLED to nearly $1.00 per pound. Why? Well, it seems that China is purchasing all the steel that it can possibly get, and, the production of steel is fixed. You cannot get any more steel than the mills produce.

What do you think is going to happen to gasoline?

The government ought to address the consumption now, before the free market inevitably does it.

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  #32  
Old 05-02-2004, 03:12 PM
greasy griddle
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prices are horrible

however, get ready because we ain't seen nothin' yet. As we get closer and closer to the end of petroleum supplies, some folks predict as soon as 10 years, others say more like 40-50, the supply will get smaller and smaller and the prices will get higher and higher. This is the specific reason I bought a diesel vehicle, to run on waste vegetable oil. We can argue about it all we like, but this is the simple law of supply and demand long term, and in the short term we have people's livelihoods on the line. That recently publicized thing about the Saudi Arabian prince and George W. and the prices dropping right before the election, stuff like that. And the corporate heads will bleed the petroleum store and the people's wallets stone dry, and leave the government holding the bag, due to the corrupt officials who ok that swindle. Ok, I'm done ranting, but it is a pretty sickening system, definitely not designed to aid you and me.
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  #33  
Old 05-02-2004, 03:22 PM
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Re: prices are horrible

Quote:
Originally posted by greasy griddle
As we get closer and closer to the end of petroleum supplies, some folks predict as soon as 10 years, others say more like 40-50, the supply will get smaller and smaller and the prices will get higher and higher.

Absolutely, completely true. Clearly, the average citizen is not going to do anything about his fuel consumption. Hell, he keeps purchasing larger and larger SUV's so that he can "be safe".

So, that leaves the government to change the behavior of the average citizen. It has the wherewithal to reduce fuel consumption TODAY. Waiting for the Prius or the hybrid SUV or a proper mass transit system to possibly reduce gasoline consumption in the future is not going to cut it.

And, I am not done ranting, it bothers me that much.
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  #34  
Old 05-02-2004, 04:41 PM
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Quote:
As we get closer and closer to the end of petroleum supplies, some folks predict as soon as 10 years
No – price insures that we’ll never run out – just a leveling off of production insures price rising dramatically in ten years. A move too something over four $$ starting after the election through 2006. A resulting adjustment (probably meaning a recession/depression) and a gradual move too sevenish in terms of today’s dollars. Inflation from what we’re now seeing in the market, along with a monetary expansion to try and re-start economic activity from the adjustment will put the inflated price at something higher, but that’s just the next ten years.
We could get into the role of fundamentalist Islam (Saudi Arabia) why we’re really in Iraq, but I don’t want to be flamed for wearing a tinfoil hat. Do our leaders know this – Well I don’t think John Kerry does, or he wouldn’t be running. No matter what, the next administration is gonna feel a lot of stress. To speak exclusively of conservation," said U.S. Vice President Dick Cheney in early 2001, "is to duck tough issues." The tough issue is that energy production must increase, and conservation will only slow that increase but can't stop it. Any significant increase in production is a great fantasy. We got a lotta coal, but alternative ways to move around will become our greatest challenge.
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  #35  
Old 05-02-2004, 05:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by crash9
To speak exclusively of conservation," said U.S. Vice President Dick Cheney in early 2001, "is to duck tough issues." The tough issue is that energy production must increase, and conservation will only slow that increase but can't stop it.
Take a look in Great Britian, France, or Germany. Think you can find a Ford Expedition? How about a Chevy Surburban? How about a Ford Explorer for that matter. You cannot find these vehicles over there. And why is that? Because the gas costs too much, that is why.

So, do you think that our collective consumption of gasoline would diminish if every Expedition, Suburban, Explorer, Grand Cherokee, Land Cruiser, Sequoia, Tahoe, Trailblazer, Humvee, and Pathfinder were effectively off the road? The answer is obvious. You may not like it, but it is obvious.
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  #36  
Old 05-02-2004, 05:39 PM
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Quote:
So, do you think that our collective consumption of gasoline would diminish if every Expedition, Suburban, Explorer, Grand Cherokee, Land Cruiser, Sequoia, Tahoe, Trailblazer, Humvee, and Pathfinder were effectively off the road? The answer is obvious. You may not like it, but it is obvious.
We live in a free market economy where business may create a demand, but essentially profits by the motto “Give em what they want”. We also live in a free society where we can vote ourselves a check from the treasury. The path we’re on makes both seem unlikely long term events in the overall history of mankind.
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  #37  
Old 05-02-2004, 07:58 PM
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Here is a great site for fuel prices. If you search around it also forecasts the supply of petroleum products. [URL=http://tonto.eia.doe.gov/oog/info/wohdp/diesel.asp]
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  #38  
Old 05-02-2004, 08:26 PM
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my 0.02 cents worth

All taxes are a punitive action = punishment.
The intention of the tax is to punish people who use fuel.
Do you feel you need to be punished?
Are we not being taxed enough?

My standard of living falls as prices go up.
If the trend continues I'll be charging more for my services.
I do not want to charge more, but I will do what I must to survive, that will cost you more.

Add $2.00 a gallon gas tax, better be ready for that automobile repair bill to go up like a rocket = doubled hourly repair rate.
My fixed costs would double or triple.

Do you think the thieves in Washington will forget to add a $2.00 a gallon diesel fuel tax.
The government ought to stop trying to perform social engineering, it only makes everything worse.
The average citizen is not going to do much about his fuel consumption, in most cases they can not = retired.
The US government has no right to change the behavior of the average citizen, which you will find in the US constitution, most people on Capitol Hill ignore this document.
I expect that they will force through more fuel taxes (for our own good) resulting in a recession-depression.
John Kerry does not know or care about what he spouts, he will say anything to get elected, and then do as he pleases.

The oil companies aren’t stupid – a new refinery is a bad investment.
If you want government action; legislate how many refineries must be in the USA and their output level.
Stop the domestic oil ship out which turns around out to sea and is shipped back as imported oil at twice the price.

FYI:
You are in the USA; not Great Britain, France, or Germany, stop trying to compare apples to onions and carrots.
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  #39  
Old 05-02-2004, 08:49 PM
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Re: my 0.02 cents worth

Quote:
Originally posted by whunter
Add $2.00 a gallon gas tax, better be ready for that automobile repair bill to go up like a rocket = doubled hourly repair rate.
My fixed costs would double or triple.


Say what? How do your fixed costs have any bearing on the gas tax? If the gas tax was increased by $1.00 tomorrow and you got a credit of $500. per year, how in the hell could your fixed costs double or triple? If you drive 15,000 miles per year with a vehicle that gets 30 mpg, then the tax costs you nothing. Even if you choose to drive a vehicle that gets 15 mpg, then the gas tax costs you $500.

If you are referring to your tow truck, a commercial vehicle, it could easily be exempt from this tax. The tax is not intended to penalize commercial vehicles that must burn more fuel and travel greater distances than the average SUV driver.
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  #40  
Old 05-02-2004, 08:54 PM
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Re: my 0.02 cents worth

Quote:
Originally posted by whunter


FYI:
You are in the USA; not Great Britain, France, or Germany, stop trying to compare apples to onions and carrots.
It is a perfectly fair comparison. In the U.S. the gas tax is quite low and the vehicles are huge. In Europe, the gas tax is very high and the vehicles are much smaller and much more fuel efficient, taken as a group.

Pretty simple comparison. Where is the flaw? Just because I live in the U.S. , I cannot use Europe as an example? Get real.
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  #41  
Old 05-03-2004, 04:49 PM
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I think this idea is pretty good, how else do you give people with more efficient vehicles an incentive than to pay for their fuel! It'll also help control the SUVs on the roads, they are absolute gas hogs cancering our fuel supply. At the very least it'll push the manufacturers into making them more efficient and not just more expensive. Here we consider economy cars deathtraps because we have such huge tank like SUVs everywhere, practically the rest of the world doens't have this problem. Since one guy bought an SUV everyone else buys them to be safe, but now they have bigger SUVs so everyone else should buy those too! Where is the end? What stopped all the land yachts and 10mpg muscle cars before? The oil embargo! Do we need another?!
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  #42  
Old 05-03-2004, 07:40 PM
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Re: Re: my 0.02 cents worth

Quote:
Originally posted by Brian Carlton
Say what? How do your fixed costs have any bearing on the gas tax? If the gas tax was increased by $1.00 tomorrow and you got a credit of $500. per year, how in the hell could your fixed costs double or triple? If you drive 15,000 miles per year with a vehicle that gets 30 mpg, then the tax costs you nothing. Even if you choose to drive a vehicle that gets 15 mpg, then the gas tax costs you $500.

If you are referring to your tow truck, a commercial vehicle, it could easily be exempt from this tax. The tax is not intended to penalize commercial vehicles that must burn more fuel and travel greater distances than the average SUV driver.
You cannot be serious, right. Since WHEN has the federal government exempted their largest form of fuel tax revenue from being taken to the cleaners? FYI, diesel fuel taxes are higher than gasoline taxes. Gues who the largest users of diesel fuel are?

Whunter nailed it dead on. EVERYTHING you purchase will rise in price to cover your utopian answer to curbing fuel consumption. Here's another potential consequence of oppressing the public's behaviour through your excessive taxation tactic. You stand a good risk of waking up a segment of the population that you DON'T want to give that final excuse to try their backwoods "battle training" on a civil uprising.

Tax freedom day this year is stated at July 11th 2004. This includes all the taxes you know you pay, and the ones you pay through the pricess of the goods you purchase.

I keep asking this of the liberals I talk to. How much government is going to be too much in YOUR eyes? So far, none of them have had the brass to answer that question.

If you don't think you pay enough taxes, I'll happily send you mine to pay as well. I pay WAY too damn much, and I'm getting PLENTY tired of it.

You want another way to cut the consumption overnight? Reinstate the national 55 mph speed limit.
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  #43  
Old 05-03-2004, 08:52 PM
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It's very easy to pin "liberal" labels on people who want to place additional taxes on things. And you can whine about more taxes until you are blue in the face. However, it does not change the basic premise:

If you put an additional tax of $1.00 per gallon ON GASOLINE, and simulatneously offer a tax credit of $500.00 per driver, you WILL effect a reduction in overall fuel consumption and you WILL NOT cause the prices of anything to rise in price.

Whether the government would exempt diesel fuel from the tax, I have no idea. The proposal was an additional tax ON GASOLINE with a simultaneous $500.00 credit per driver. If you want to refute the proposal, stick to the premise of the proposal.

I'm not happy about additional taxes myself. I certainly pay more than my fair share. However, I would gladly accept my own proposal because it would absolutely reduce the overall gasoline consumption with few consequences. Furthermore, if the tax was only on GASOLINE, the sales of diesel powered vehicles would skyrocket. This would immediately cause a reduction in fuel consumption.

For those who want to continue to whine about taxes, offer another proposal for reducing fuel consumption. The suggestions of the hybrid SUV and the advent of more mass transit are all worthy goals, however, without economic incentive to purchase and use smaller vehicles, the total fuel consumption can only rise.

The 55 mph speed limit would also be a possible solution to the problem. However, the reintroduction of this limit might be less palatable then the additional tax combined with the credit.
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  #44  
Old 05-03-2004, 09:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Brian Carlton
And this is the fundamental problem. With the advent of 6000 lb. SUV's, and the heavy sales of them, every person now believes that he better get one of the damn things so that he, too, can now be safe! Cannot be driving a Prius around when you might get hit by an Expedition!

This can only lead to more consumption, not less. Hell, I might as well just buy an old 10 wheel Mack tractor (tractor/trailer) now. If one of those Expeditions hits the tractor, I'd hardly know it. Then everybody will want to step up to a tractor! Where do you stop?

If you did not have such a proliferation of fuel guzzling SUV's out there, people would fell safe in a Camry or a Prius.

Well, my SUV gets 22 which isn't that bad IMHO. And if they would have imported a diesel version I'd have that. My hauler gets 17-24 depending on load and yes, its about the biggest, heavyist thing out there on 4 wheels. Find me a small car that:

A) I fit in, the only car I've ever found I do not run the seat at maxium rear is the 140 chassis and only the LWB.

B) Will comfortably hold 4 people and their stuff and be capable of maintianing a safe speed up I 26 into Hendersonville with that load.

C) Provides a level of occupant safety and I dont mean a cocoon of airbags but real safety as in visibility, manuverability, braking and acceleration. Front drive need not apply.

A camry is not a small car, thats a midsize very much in the size range of my 124 car.


Here is another point to ponder, I know my 7500 pound Dodge truck can/will do one hell of a lot more damage to a vehicle it hits than the Jeep would ever think about. So why is the Jeep and 124 wagon more to insure?


My 124 diesel wagon see's 500 miles a week, the Jeep about 100, the Dodge maybe 10.

I see several simple solutions.

1) Allow importation of more of the offerings from Europe, I'd be very tempted by a diesel Nissan Patrol or FJ55 diesel or diesel G. Of course I'm a sick human, I think Fiat 500's are cool.

2) Road tax by weight, not value. My Dodge cost the same as my Jeep to register and property taxes are about the same money. If you feel taxation is the answer then tax heavy on the gas vehicles over 4000#'s and over 5L (the bulk of the vehicles you have named fall in this range) Get downright specific about it. Dont place undue burdun on retired people and working class people who can't afford 25K for a shoebox that gets 35mpg. Greece has some interesting taxation by displacement stuff.

3) Get Kalifornia to realize that diesels are less a problem from a pollution aspect than lets say the millions of aircraft leaving LAX annually. (ok maybe a stretch)

4) Force encourage carpooling by way of making riding single a hassle. Ever look at pictures from a LA traffic jam and start counting heads. 7 out of 10 cars have 1 head in there. Lets see, thats 70% that are riding single, drop that to 20% and you have cuts 40% of the total number of vehicles out of the picture.

5) Get rid of the tax break for people buying these things in droves.


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  #45  
Old 05-03-2004, 10:23 PM
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Re: my 0.02 cents worth

Quote:
Originally posted by whunter
All taxes are a punitive action = punishment.
The intention of the tax is to punish people who use fuel.
Do you feel you need to be punished?
Are we not being taxed enough?

The US government has no right to change the behavior of the average citizen, which you will find in the US constitution, most people on Capitol Hill ignore this document.
I expect that they will force through more fuel taxes (for our own good) resulting in a recession-depression.
It was my understanding that to an extent, fuel taxes pay for the highways and other public utilities that support our automobile-centric society.

Does anyone know for sure what this tax is ultimately earmarked for? (Responses of "the fat politicians' pockets" excluded)

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