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  #16  
Old 05-21-2004, 07:41 PM
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Quote:
I think if they ever tried they'd have half the state up in arms.
You mean all 300 of you??? I thought you already were up in arms and wanting to anex Canada. :p

Put that puppy on veggie oil and they won't know what hit them.

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  #17  
Old 05-21-2004, 08:10 PM
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Hmmm Re: who says you must test?

Quote:
Originally posted by Jim Dandy
The federal government sets the minimum standards and states can extend them. A state requiring emissions certifications above and beyond federal law does not infringe on the federal government's authority. Ask an attorney if you don't believe it.
Not if the vehicle was manufactured prior to emissions standards.
The vehicle we are talking about was exempted from emission testing when manufactured and imported, because there where no standards.
Consult the DOT and EPA on that fact.
EPA - DOT testing of diesels did not start until 1985, all earlier vehicles are totally exempt.
Consult a US attorney on the facts of these statements.
US Supreme Court has slapped California hard on this point.
It would cost several tens of trillion dollars to make all the old, classic and antique cars meet emissions.

I would bet that a bureaucrat looked at gas emission testing and assumed that diesel started at the same time, wrong thinking.
Consult a lawyer, you will win and do a big favor for all diesel owners in your state.
Have a great day.
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  #18  
Old 05-21-2004, 08:32 PM
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Diesels exempt in CA.
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  #19  
Old 05-21-2004, 09:26 PM
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Re: Hmmm Re: who says you must test?

Quote:
Originally posted by whunter
The vehicle we are talking about was exempted from emission testing when manufactured and imported, because there where no standards.
Consult the DOT and EPA on that fact.
EPA - DOT testing of diesels did not start until 1985, all earlier vehicles are totally exempt.
I don't think diesels before 1985 were exempt. There's an emission certification tag on my 82 300D so how could it be exempt. As far as I know every car had to meet the current emission standard of its time.

BTW, I'm a strong opponent of exempting certain vehicles from smog testing, especially in rural counties. Just because there are fewer people living somewhere shouldn't give them the right to pollute as much as they want. They live on this planet too and pollution does spread.
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  #20  
Old 05-21-2004, 09:48 PM
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kemaysab
Here in Pima county I am allowed 30% opacity on my 83 F250. It always passes at about 3%. I don't know offhand what the allowance is on my 87 Benz, but it goes thru at about 1 to 2%. Last year there was an exhaust leak and it went thru at 0%!!! The emissions are very lenient on the older diesels, in order to fail your engine would be in such bad shape you probably wouldn't be driving it. When you do the high speed test just be sure to go over the range indicated on the analyzer screen then slowly back down into range, when it will begin the test. Keep a light foot, even dropping MPH slowly and you will pass cleaner than an old gasser. The last thing you want to do is accelerate during the test period.
Hook all your hoses and vaccuum lines up first or you will fail the visual.
Brian
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  #21  
Old 05-21-2004, 10:13 PM
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Re: Hmmm Re: who says you must test?

Quote:
Originally posted by whunter
Not if the vehicle was manufactured prior to emissions standards.
The vehicle we are talking about was exempted from emission testing when manufactured and imported, because there where no standards.
Consult the DOT and EPA on that fact.
EPA - DOT testing of diesels did not start until 1985, all earlier vehicles are totally exempt.
Consult a US attorney on the facts of these statements.
US Supreme Court has slapped California hard on this point.
It would cost several tens of trillion dollars to make all the old, classic and antique cars meet emissions.

I would bet that a bureaucrat looked at gas emission testing and assumed that diesel started at the same time, wrong thinking.
Consult a lawyer, you will win and do a big favor for all diesel owners in your state.
Have a great day.
You don't get it, do you? Even if the diesels manufactured PRIOR to a certain date were exempt from FEDERAL emission standards at the time, they are still subject to STATE emission standards. FEDERAL emission standards, or in this case the lack thereof, are considered the MINIMUM standards. As long as states don't try to go BELOW the MINIMUM standards, they are free to impose whatever additional emissions they want. Your "facts" are incorrect.

I enjoy reading your posts on mechanical matters, but you are clearly out of your element on this subject. Please consult a local attorney if you doubt this.
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  #22  
Old 05-22-2004, 01:27 AM
NCAeroGeek
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As Dieselmania said, the test for diesels is not to hard here in Tucson. My 84 300D passed with 0% opacity back in February when I first bought it. And it had been sitting for at least half a year on a car lot. But one alternative for Arizona is to register it to an address out of the city if you have relatives or some property out of town. Emissions is strictly a Tucson / Greater Phoenix req.
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  #23  
Old 05-22-2004, 03:52 AM
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I just took the State of Oregon emission test two days ago on my new El cheapo 1975 240D beater. All vehicles 1975 and newer must take emission testing in the Portland Area.

The requirements are, for a 1975 240D:

"CO(%) MAX 1.5%"

and

"OPACITY LEVEL: For a diesel vehicle, if smoke is visible from the tailpipe, the percentage of clarity. If the percentage is higher than 20, the vehicle will fail. For a gasoline-powered vehicle, it will fail for any visible emissions not including water vapor."

The test was done at idle, not on a treadmill. The car smokes very little if at all at idle. The technician didn't perform the opacity test. The measured CO% was 0.00.

This car smokes a little blue when I lift the "gas" pedal in gear to downshift, or slowing down. I will replace the valve seals soon. Power seems fine. Starts fine.

Go take the test, you'll probably pass.

Good luck,

Blake
'86 300E (oh, it's smooth)
'75 240D (oh, it's kinda rough)
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  #24  
Old 05-22-2004, 09:39 AM
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Re: Re: Hmmm Re: who says you must test?

Quote:
Originally posted by Jim Dandy
You don't get it, do you? Even if the diesels manufactured PRIOR to a certain date were exempt from FEDERAL emission standards at the time, they are still subject to STATE emission standards. FEDERAL emission standards, or in this case the lack thereof, are considered the MINIMUM standards. As long as states don't try to go BELOW the MINIMUM standards, they are free to impose whatever additional emissions they want. Your "facts" are incorrect.
I enjoy reading your posts on mechanical matters, but you are clearly out of your element on this subject. Please consult a local attorney if you doubt this.
I understand this subject very well.
I have worked as an engineer in the OEM’s and I have worked as a master mechanic in 28 states.
Unilateral retroactive emission testing of vehicles made prior to emissions standards is a clear violation of US law.
I will consult the EPA test lab in Ann Arbor, Michigan for chapter and verse and when testing began.
As I recall; any state may raise there emission standards and it will effect all vehicles manufactured from that date forward only.
No state can mandate that a FORD Model-T meet any standard: the same applies to a Packard or any pre standard automobile.
The critical date is when 49 state testing of import diesels began.

As stated; if you are concerned:
#1. Run the fuel tank as low as possible.
#2. Refill with pure clean vegetable oil.
#3. You will pass, regardless of how bad the EGR is.
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  #25  
Old 05-22-2004, 10:41 AM
Jim Dandy's Avatar
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You're really beginning to become annoying

Quote:
Originally posted by whunter
I understand this subject very well.
I have worked as an engineer in the OEM’s and I have worked as a master mechanic in 28 states.
Unilateral retroactive emission testing of vehicles made prior to emissions standards is a clear violation of US law.
I will consult the EPA test lab in Ann Arbor, Michigan for chapter and verse and when testing began.
As I recall; any state may raise there emission standards and it will effect all vehicles manufactured from that date forward only.
No state can mandate that a FORD Model-T meet any standard: the same applies to a Packard or any pre standard automobile.
The critical date is when 49 state testing of import diesels began.
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO, there's no violation of U.S. law. You really aren't getting this. A state can add additional regulations/restrictions to federal law. Period. The federal standards are considered minimums. It's well within states' rights to impose their own minimums as long as they don't go below federal minimums.

For instance, there is no federal law that says a car can't smoke like a mosquito killer, but there is in California (and other places). If a state decided that they wanted all cars over a certain age off the road, and their voter block would tolerate it, they would simply ban or restrict them and the federal government wouldn't have squat to say about it since that restriction doesn't go BELOW federal minimums.

A good example of a state trying to go below federal standards was Arizona about ten years ago (when Symington was governor). After the federal government restricted the sale and production of R12 refrigerant, Arizona's state government decided that they would exempt themselves from that requirement. The federal government promptly went to court and sued Arizona.

Yes, it is impressive that you've acquired a good deal of experience as an engineer and mechanic (and I really DO enjoy reading your posts on mechanical subjects), but you aren't understanding states' right versus federal law in this argument. We can place a little money on this and get an independent attorney in here if you like.
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  #26  
Old 05-22-2004, 07:58 PM
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I'm no lawyer but I think Jim is right though I understand what whunter is saying about not being able to require Model-T's to pass an emission test. Clearly there was no emission testing back then, but I think you (whunter) are wrong about the year 1985 as the start of emission testing. It was definitely way before then, otherwise why do my 82 and 83 cars have emission tags?
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  #27  
Old 05-22-2004, 08:23 PM
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Lightbulb

Quote:
Originally posted by DieselAddict
I'm no lawyer but I think Jim is right though I understand what whunter is saying about not being able to require Model-T's to pass an emission test. Clearly there was no emission testing back then, but I think you (whunter) are wrong about the year 1985 as the start of emission testing. It was definitely way before then, otherwise why do my 82 and 83 cars have emission tags?
In a nutshell, this is what's occurring:

The federal diesel emission requirement states that because there were no standards before such-and-such date, then there is no need to require a diesel automobile to be tested if it was manufactured before that date.

Certain states, on the other hand, are saying that that's not good enough for their locale. They feel that there is a need to set some kind of emissions standard for diesel automobiles manufactured before the federally imposed date if they are to be licensed for use in their state. Obviously this does not go below any federal standard and the standards will (obviously) not be as rigorous as any standards set for any currently manufactured diesel engines.

A state could most certainly require emissions testing for any automobile licensed within their jurisdiction -- even Model Ts. A lot of the decision will come down to how many vehicles of a certain age are operated on a "regular" basis and what the public will tolerate as far as additonal licensing and testing.
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I'm wanted in four states, but it's all good. Got me a new driver's license and a sweet new pickup. V-8, Baby, five-hundred horsepower. Oh, and four of them mudflaps with the naked ladies on them. GRRRRRRRR, MAMASITA!!! And the best part is, it's all free!!! Yeah, well, for me at least!!!! HA-HA-HA-HA-HA!!!!
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  #28  
Old 07-25-2010, 07:15 PM
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Diesels are exempt from emissions testing in NC too. The new diesels I don't know about though.
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  #29  
Old 07-26-2010, 01:34 AM
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My 86 F250 failed the emissions opacity (smoke) test the first pass last time due to the amount of oil it burns. I installed a blowby vapor trap to catch the oil and it passed just fine.

Its time for another test - fortunately, the last one it will ever see (vehicles over 25 years old are exempt). I just cleaned out the oil trap system. I'm going to install a temporary road draft tube, run it hard for 20-30 miles to warm it up and flush/burn all the residual oil out of the system, and then reconnect the oil vapor trap - right before rolling into the emissions station. Hopefully it will pass.

If it doesn't I have to take it to a certified emissions repair station and spend a minimum of $150 on emissions-related repairs to get a waiver. For an old IDI diesel that would mean having the timing adjusted and or the injectors cleaned - 'cause there isn't much else they can do that would qualify as an emissions repair...

My 84 MB already made its last trip through the emissions station last year, so that's no longer an issue.
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  #30  
Old 07-26-2010, 10:44 AM
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Emissions exempt in PA.

So what was the consensus? I was under the impression that state/federal laws can't be retroactive in their emissions testing. This meaning that if there wasn't an emissions test in 1985 then the Fed/state governments can't do anything.

Has this changed? It sounds more like newer regulations are being poorly applied to older vehicles.

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