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  #16  
Old 11-08-2005, 02:31 AM
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the type of piping used can and will affect the overall pressure drop. If you have any wavy surfaces, like this Mosselman kit has: http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Mercedes-Benz-Mosselman-Turbo-Systems_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ107063QQitemZ4587946175QQrdZ1QQsspagenameZWDVW
you are adding a ton of back pressure. The best surface is smooth, no lips not bumps especially no flex hoses like shown in that kit!~
higher pressure drop also reduces the spool up time, adding some load to the turbo.
Bigger is better but smoother is mo better!
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Last edited by dieseldiehard; 11-08-2005 at 02:37 AM.
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  #17  
Old 11-08-2005, 11:12 AM
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Thanks for the info

Quote:
Originally Posted by dieseldiehard
the type of piping used can and will affect the overall pressure drop. If you have any wavy surfaces, like this Mosselman kit has: http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Mercedes-Benz-Mosselman-Turbo-Systems_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ107063QQitemZ4587946175QQrdZ1QQsspagenameZWDVW
you are adding a ton of back pressure. The best surface is smooth, no lips not bumps especially no flex hoses like shown in that kit!~
higher pressure drop also reduces the spool up time, adding some load to the turbo.
Bigger is better but smoother is mo better!

I agree with the smoothness factor, and I have tried my best short of custom pipe extrusions. What I have done is routed my tubing via the shortest distance possible without hacking up the car. My charge tube is a flex rigid 2" about 2.5' long, my post IC tube is of the same construction and about 3' llong. I have minimized the curves as much as possible using only 4 x 90 deg couplers in the system. More testing is underway and I'll keep you posted.
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  #18  
Old 11-08-2005, 11:46 AM
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Because of the losses inherent in piping in an air to air intercooler, I'm looking at installing a low profile air to liquid intercooler, with the air to liquid heat exchanger mounted above the engine, in line with the current crossover pipe from the turbo outlet to the intake manifold. The liquid to air heat exchanger will be mounted low, near the front bumper, with an electric fan and electric pump to circulate the liquid. This configuration should produce the maximum cooling, with the least head loss in the air stream, providing the best power/efficiency boost.
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  #19  
Old 11-08-2005, 12:52 PM
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Here's another update....

OK, I had a Homer Simpson moment and realized where part of my pressure drop was coming from, a rubber to rubber connection without a good seal. Fixed that, now I'm running 12-12.5 psi, which is only a 2psi drop from stock. I'm assuming the 2 psi drop is now due to the capacity increase, some lack of smoothness and mainly the cooling efficiency of the IC. Heck it's only 2 psi.

A couple of static comparison runs has shown a good 200 deg drop in EGTs. All out she now hits 1050 deg, instead of the former 1250, and the climb from there on out is much slower. Ambient air temp 85 deg during the test (FL).

At 60mph, she is now only at 450 deg cruise, down from about 600 deg before.
Also worth noting the EGT temp changes are faster than before too.

Now for some G-Tech tests on performance. So far I'm doing this in steps, monitoring everything as I go, I have not adjusted the ALDA or IP yet for more fule, this is still all on the original set-up with no changes other than adding an IC

My goal is that if the 200 deg EGT drop holds, then I can add some more fuel and bring it up to stck temps once again, albeit hopfully with more performance.

Cheers
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1975 Corvette 4-speed 59k mi (Hot Lips)
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  #20  
Old 11-08-2005, 03:17 PM
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Breaking the law in the name of scientific research...

OK, so now I have covered my legal behind. 3 GTech runs, 0-60 and 1/4 mi. actually show a bit of a performance gain from the IC alone with no other mods.

Prior to IC my performance averages were as follows:
Ambient Air Temp 88 deg
0-60 10.05
1/4 19.45 @ 74.5 mph

Now my Average across the three runs is:
Ambient Air Temp 89 deg
0-60 9.15
1/4 18.11 @83.0 mph

As you can see even with a 2psi drop in boost due to the IC I shaved just shy of a full second off of the 0-60 times and almost a second and a half on the 1/4 mile with a 7.5 mph increase.

Soon it will be time to fiddle with the fuel side and make this a 15 second wagon

How do these figures compare with others observations, stock, tuned or IC'd??

Thanx
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  #21  
Old 11-08-2005, 09:04 PM
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I'd have to agree that plumbing the wastegate after the I/C is a good idea. I'd also reccomend raising the boost to get the lost psi back. The T-3 turbo can make boost well past 20psi and although not efficiency that's why you've got an I/C.
Before it was totalled earlier this year my daily driver was a Saab 900 with 21 psi of boost. That was on the tiny t-25 turbo which was only efficient up to 15 psi. With the factory high flow I/C I could have full 21psi before a "fast" WRX even came on boost. It sure feels good to pull a car legnth off the line on a car that should eat you for lunch. The point here is that with a good I/C you can push a smaller turbo past it's efficiency and get a lot of boost at lower RPMs. This is the best you could hope for with a diesel where high RPMs aren't encountered. As long as EGT is kept in check you won't harm the turbo doing this. Here again the I/C is worth it's weight in gold.
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  #22  
Old 11-08-2005, 09:15 PM
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and plumb

all sensors etc after the ic as well. boost sensor and such. this way you will be reading the actual net boost at the intake of the motor.

neat project.

tom w
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  #23  
Old 11-08-2005, 09:31 PM
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Great info, and thanks. Also helpful info regarding the SAAB IC, this is the unit I am using a high-flow 900 turbo IC about 9x9 sidemount.

I plan on replumbing the wastegate to the intake manifold. Currently my gauge is already tapped into the manifold actually it shares the ALDA port. After I reroute the wastgate line I will up the boost if needed back to 14psi, and monitor.

BTW I also now hear the turbo whine a bit more, which I think is just peachy, I won't take mileage readings for a while simply because it's too fun not to lay into the pedal now
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1987 300TD 285K mi Intercooler (Hans)
1985 Jag XJS 119k mi 5-speed 178 mph (Evil Kitty)
1975 Corvette 4-speed 59k mi (Hot Lips)
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  #24  
Old 11-09-2005, 05:41 AM
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87

Quote:
Originally Posted by 87tdwagen
I managed to keep everything intact as OE except the following items which were deleated:
1. EGR somehow the only part that got lost in the process, hmmmm
2. EGR Mixer pipe mid section and top crossover coupler
3. #1 cylinder heatshield the little short one in front of the header.

All else stayed or was reused.

Intake mods include the removal of the airbox and isolation as well as insulation of the airbox chamber.

Keep ya posted on EGT results and what not
Without making major mods..Can you tell me if simply disconnecting the EGR and having the vacuum line plugged will do? Or is there an additional mod needed...I have a 93 300D 2.5L L-5...Thanks in advance
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  #25  
Old 11-09-2005, 11:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iceman3876
Without making major mods..Can you tell me if simply disconnecting the EGR and having the vacuum line plugged will do? Or is there an additional mod needed...I have a 93 300D 2.5L L-5.
I think additional work will be required to convince the computer that the EGR is working. Driving around in limp-home mode with the EGR and turbo(or is it just the ALDA?) switched off might help your mpgs, but it does terrible things to your horsepower output.
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  #26  
Old 11-09-2005, 11:54 AM
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EGR can simply be disconnected, does not have to be removed

Quote:
Originally Posted by iceman3876
Without making major mods..Can you tell me if simply disconnecting the EGR and having the vacuum line plugged will do? Or is there an additional mod needed...I have a 93 300D 2.5L L-5...Thanks in advance

Before I started the IC mod, I had unplugged and capped off the EGR itself. No issues and no noticeable performance gain from this, I just wanted to keep crud from entering my intake.

So once I pulled of the EGR completely guess what I found...it was not working before either, mainly due to crud carbon and oil cake build-up on the exhaust valve side, so much so that crud blocked up into the little flex pipe connector as well. With this kind of blockage, my EGR has propbably not opened in about 60k mi or so.

Theoretically, unplugging the EGR should improve performance albeit a minor improvement, but eliminating hot exhaust gases and crud from reentering your engine will lower your EGT's slightly and make the engine run a lot smoother.

With a newer computer controlled car this may be more of an issue, but generally still holds true. EGRs are about the worst invention in the name of environmental protection, similar to MTB fuels, yeah sure you put out less emissions with an EGR, but at the expense of less engine efficiency and extra waste heat, thus lowing the economy of the engine to the degree where you are actually introducing more emmissions to the environment to do the same work, negating the positive benefits of the EGR in the first place.

Cheers
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Stable Mates:
1994 E320 Cabriolet 80K mi (TBD)
1987 300TD 285K mi Intercooler (Hans)
1985 Jag XJS 119k mi 5-speed 178 mph (Evil Kitty)
1975 Corvette 4-speed 59k mi (Hot Lips)

Last edited by 87tdwagen; 11-09-2005 at 12:00 PM.
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  #27  
Old 11-09-2005, 02:16 PM
SW SW is offline
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Has fuel economy gotten better after the mod?
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  #28  
Old 11-09-2005, 05:17 PM
Brandon314159
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mitch H
I think additional work will be required to convince the computer that the EGR is working. Driving around in limp-home mode with the EGR and turbo(or is it just the ALDA?) switched off might help your mpgs, but it does terrible things to your horsepower output.
I would also like to 2nd this point. Its not a simple unplug and go on these newer cars unfortunately..
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  #29  
Old 11-09-2005, 08:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iceman3876
Without making major mods..Can you tell me if simply disconnecting the EGR and having the vacuum line plugged will do? Or is there an additional mod needed...I have a 93 300D 2.5L L-5...Thanks in advance
OM602 mod discussed here:
EGR blocked
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