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  #1  
Old 05-13-2006, 12:27 AM
ForcedInduction
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GT22V (VNT Turbo) on a 300D

I've got my GT22V this afternoon. It's from a 2003 Dodge Sprinter of unknown milage. There is not excessive play or any oil in the intake/exhaust housings.

I did have the turbine housing off today but I did not have a camera to shoot it. It's also a PITA to align all the tabs, the housing tab AND the control tab so I'm not going to take it apart again until I need to. There are 13 Titanium vanes in the .64 A/R housing. I also lubed everything with Permatex 1600* anti-seize. The compressor wheel is 50 trim (39.6mm inducer - 56mm exducer) in a .53 A/R Compressor housing.

One picture shows a stock 300D T3 (45 trim) compressor wheel with the GT22 wheel.

You can see that it's nowhere near the same size inleat as the stock exhaust manifold. An adaptor plate will have to be made. That leads to the other problem. If I do make just a plate, the oil inlet/outlet will be at an angle. I don't know if that's more than max angle of 30*.
Attached Thumbnails
GT22V (VNT Turbo) on a 300D-gt22v-air-inlet.jpg   GT22V (VNT Turbo) on a 300D-gt22v-exhaust-inlet.jpg   GT22V (VNT Turbo) on a 300D-t3-gt22-compress-wheels.jpg   GT22V (VNT Turbo) on a 300D-300d-gt22v.jpg   GT22V (VNT Turbo) on a 300D-gt22v-oil-inlet.jpg  


Last edited by ForcedInduction; 12-16-2006 at 04:52 AM.
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  #2  
Old 05-13-2006, 09:13 PM
ForcedInduction
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Update

Here is the adaptor plate prototype template on the right. The GT22V inlet template on the left.

Keywords: VNT VGT VVT VNT15 VNT25 GT2256V GT2259V variable nozzle turbine geometry vane technology
Attached Thumbnails
GT22V (VNT Turbo) on a 300D-300d-gt22v-adapt-design-s.jpg  

Last edited by ForcedInduction; 12-16-2006 at 05:30 AM.
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  #3  
Old 05-13-2006, 09:35 PM
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How do you plan on controlling the variable vanes? Also may I ask how much did you pay for the turbo? What are you excpecting from it? More hp? More lower end torque? Other mods to the engine like IC?
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  #4  
Old 05-13-2006, 10:04 PM
ForcedInduction
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deni
How do you plan on controlling the variable vanes? Also may I ask how much did you pay for the turbo? What are you excpecting from it? More hp? More lower end torque? Other mods to the engine like IC?
Here is a very simple diagram of how I'm thinking of how to control a vacuum actuated VNT turbocharger.

A very simple on-off setup can be made with a pressure switch and an electric vacuum valve (G@sser emissions system valve).

The SPDT switch can take one or both of the deviced out of the system.

Performance/Brake: Bypasses the idle switch out of the circut, vanes are always closed except at full boost. Good for drag racing, turbo braking (exhaust brake), and faster cold engine warmup (Higher exhaust backpressure loads the engine).

Off: The control valve gets no power and prevents the turbo from getting vavuum. The vanes stay wide open at all times. Good for low traction (snow/mud/gravel) and highway crusing (Less pumping resistance means better fuel efficiency).

Normal: Everything works as normal. Pressure switch cuts vacuum at a set psi, opening the vanes and controling max boost pressure. Idle switch opens the vanes when the throttle linkage is at rest to reduce engine stress and pumping losses.

The good part of this system is it's failsafe. If electrical power or vacuum is lost, the vanes default open.

HERE is the eBay auction that I won for it. What I am looking for is minimal boost lag between shifts (manual transmission) and lower exhaust manifold backpressure (It's got a .64 A/R turbine housing vs. a .48 A/R for a stock T3). The stock Dodge Sprinter it came out of had ~150hp so that is my goal for now.

Short term mods I've got in the works:
Water/Methanol injection- The kit is in the mail, I'm just waiting for it to get here.
Pyrometer
0-30psi boost gauge- To see what my exhaust manifold backpressure is like with my stock K26 turbo and then the GT22V.

Next month:
Dyno run- See what (if any) change the water injection makes.
Intercooler- Air to water
GT22V turbo install.

Later on:
Turn up the pump full load adjustment.
Attached Thumbnails
GT22V (VNT Turbo) on a 300D-vnt-control.jpg  

Last edited by ForcedInduction; 05-14-2006 at 02:31 PM.
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  #5  
Old 05-14-2006, 11:03 AM
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$125 for a vnt turbe seems like a steal . Dodge sprinter diesel (we have mercedes sprinter in europe) do they have a 2.7l i5 cdi engine? If yes 150hp without further mods seems a bit optimistic, though I hope it works well .


By the way I understand it is that you plan on having the turbo in 3 modes, sort of on off medium and max? How do they work in the cars they were intented for? I thought the vanes adjust themselves to give the best boost under every rpm, hence the great lowend torque (like a small turbo) without its dissadvantages.

As for the watter injection, well from what I've seen from this thread the guy who installed it didn't get any improvement on egts though he says he got more power. http://***************/forum/showthread.php?t=475&page=2&pp=20

Maybe an IC would be better?

Good luck with your moding! Plese keep posting here as I'm interested how far can you go .
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  #6  
Old 05-14-2006, 02:07 PM
ForcedInduction
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deni
By the way I understand it is that you plan on having the turbo in 3 modes, sort of on off medium and max? How do they work in the cars they were intented for? I thought the vanes adjust themselves to give the best boost under every rpm, hence the great lowend torque (like a small turbo) without its dissadvantages.

As for the watter injection, well from what I've seen from this thread the guy who installed it didn't get any improvement on egts though he says he got more power. http://***************/forum/showthread.php?t=475&page=2&pp=20

Maybe an IC would be better?

Good luck with your moding! Plese keep posting here as I'm interested how far can you go .
The turbo is contolled by the computer on the sprinter. Since I have few skills in building my own computer, this is the best idea I can come up with. If you have any thoughts on how to improve that diagram, please share. I've got an open mind. I wanted the switch to give me more choice on how the vanes work. That way, the vanes can be left wide open for the highway or if at idle when the engine is warm to increase fuel efficiency. If that control method turns out not to work like I want it to, I will replace the vacuum actuator with a wastegate pod. That's what I wanted to do at first but the pod I have (Boost and vacuum in one pod from an 89 Dodge Daytona VNT) won't work with the turbo.

I'm not really looking for much, if any, EGT reduction with the water injection. I want the HP out of it. (That's why Ill use a water/methanol mix insted of straight water.) The water injection will be in addition to an intercooler (Injected AFTER the intercooler).

Unlike Ridge ( Intercooled 300DT Pictures), I know that I need to turn up my pump to get more than 120hp. That's why I have a pyrometer and several dyno sessions to back up my work. HERE is my baseline dyno run for my car. 96.1HP-137TQ to the rear wheels.
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  #7  
Old 05-14-2006, 02:33 PM
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Stick an old laptop inside that ebgine bay if you need a comp .

I understand how the vnt turbo works, but never bothered to search how it's actually controlled. I will though. And if I find anything interesting, I will post it .

As for the watter/methanol injection, why don't you go for lpg fumigation. IMO it gives more power . I know it's more dangerous but some common sence and ... .
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  #8  
Old 05-14-2006, 02:42 PM
ForcedInduction
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Originally Posted by Deni
As for the watter/methanol injection, why don't you go for lpg fumigation. IMO it gives more power . I know it's more dangerous but some common sence and ... .
Oh trust me. I want LPG fumigation. Sadly it's on the bottom of my list. The cost of a dual-stage regulator, tank, filling, (Safely) mounting the tank, pressure/LPG proof lines is way out of my budget for the time being. It's been shown not to have as much effect on IDI engines as it does with DI engines. http://www.mrsharkey.com/lpg.htm Once I got to the point that I need to squeeze every little HP out of the engine without changing the pump plungers, then I will look more into it.

It also has the most damage risk to the engine if not tuned right. Not a good risk on my only car.
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  #9  
Old 05-24-2006, 01:37 AM
ForcedInduction
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I made some big progress today.

The adaptor plate is nearly finished. All I need to do is cut mounting holes for the GT22V studs.

I did manage to figure out a way to clock the turbine housing. There are 3 T15 machine screws that hold the vanes in place. I drilled and tapped 3 new holes to relocate the ring where I needed them to be. Now the oil inlet/outlets are vertical insted of at a 35* angle. But, I will have to fabricate a mount for the control pod since it's mouting holes changed location.
Attached Thumbnails
GT22V (VNT Turbo) on a 300D-gt22v-300d-adapt-metal.jpg   GT22V (VNT Turbo) on a 300D-gt22v-vanes-open.jpg   GT22V (VNT Turbo) on a 300D-gt22v-vanes-closed.jpg   GT22V (VNT Turbo) on a 300D-gt22v-oil-vert.jpg  
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  #10  
Old 05-24-2006, 01:43 AM
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Gonna dump the stock air intake?
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  #11  
Old 05-24-2006, 01:58 AM
ForcedInduction
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hit Man X
Gonna dump the stock air intake?
Something like this will be made/used.
Attached Thumbnails
GT22V (VNT Turbo) on a 300D-picture-034.jpg  
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  #12  
Old 05-24-2006, 02:09 AM
Goodentight
 
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The vane control is not a boost level control, but rather a 'rate of boost increase' control and so does not respond in the same manner as a conventional wastegate actuator. Some significant driveability issues can be experienced.

I have been planning on installing a VNT on both my '82 300SD and my '83 VW 1.6TD Vanagon. In neither case am I particularly interested in significantly increasing the peak hp, but rather simply increasing the low-end torque for good off the line performance. In both cases the added air early in the rpm's should actually help fuel economy as well as performance.

My vane control will be all mechanical and have 3 parts/inputs. There will be a simple fairly weak spring to hold the vanes normally open. There will be a cable attached to the trottle linkage that will terminate at a spring acting in the opposite direction to close the vanes. The pressure of the spring will obviously increase according to the degree that the throttle is depressed. The third input will be a can that reacts to boost pressure. The place where the actuator arm of the can attaches to the vane control lever will be a channel that allows the vanes full opening ability, but will limit the degree that the vanes can be closed, according to boost pressure.

The control system should accomplish several goals:
It will fail safe. It will free flow at idle. It should not be excessively jumpy at highway cruising unless someone mashes the pedal abruptly (in which case they deserve the accompanying boost spike). It will be very simple to make and adjust.

Ideally, for complete idiotproof driveability, a vane control should also have an rpm input that opens the vanes according to engine rpm to avoid potential boost spikes with higher rpm driving, but I prefer not to let idiots drive my cars.

There have been two significant setbacks that have kept me from quickly completeing either project. The VNT for the Mercedes has taken a long time to arrive and the transmission of my TD Vanagon has started to have a 4th and 5th gear issue and so will need rebuilding. AARGH.

Andrew
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  #13  
Old 05-24-2006, 02:34 AM
ForcedInduction
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Quote:
Originally Posted by libbybapa
The vane control is not a boost level control, but rather a 'rate of boost increase' control and so does not respond in the same manner as a conventional wastegate actuator. Some significant driveability issues can be experienced.
This is why I'm trying my best to make everything 100% reversible. If it turns out to be a nightmare to make it work, I can just toss my KKK turbo back on and figure it out.

Rather than use the vacuum actuator, I could just use a traditional boost pressure wastegate actuator. If I pick one with the right spring it should progress the vanes open as boost builds to preven spikes.

I'm not really interested in "maxing" the engine like the finns. I'd be ecstatic if I could get 130whp and keep a safe 1250*f EGT.
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  #14  
Old 05-24-2006, 10:49 AM
Goodentight
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ForcedInduction
Rather than use the vacuum actuator, I could just use a traditional boost pressure wastegate actuator. If I pick one with the right spring it should progress the vanes open as boost builds to preven spikes.
That will work but will also cause a few potential issues. It will fail to a vane closed situation. Whenever fueling drops off the vanes will close. That will have increased backpressure in situations like cruise and idle. Probably least desirable is that in higher rpm partial throttle situations the boost will drop off and the vanes will close. With the higher rpms and higher exhaust flow simultaneous with vanes closed or almost closed, any slight change in the accelerator pedal will cause the boost to spike faster than the actuator can compensate and you will have a very jumpy throttle. Who knows, you might find it fun.

On my setup the vanes will be open for most of the accelerator pedal travel and only close in the last half, reaching fully closed right before the kickdown switch (auto tranny). This should significantly help the jumpy throttle effect.

I think that they can be made to work and very effectively at that. Don't be discouraged even if it exibits strange behavior at first. I'm excited to hear your results.

Andrew
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  #15  
Old 05-24-2006, 11:24 AM
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As the vanes close they constrict the flow accelerating it at an angle to the turbine blades thus causing the turbine to spin faster at the expense of more back pressure. As the vanes open up they drop back pressure but also reduce the turbine speed.

In general you want maximum boost across the widest rpm range possible ( neglecting emissions EGR flow considerations ). Ideally you want a system that opens the vanes at rpms to low to generate boost even with a VGT and closes them when boost can start to be created and opens them up to regulate maximum boost.
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