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View Poll Results: How much would you pay for a Performance MW pump?
Up to $200 4 18.18%
$200 to $400 8 36.36%
$400 to $600 6 27.27%
$600+ 4 18.18%
Voters: 22. You may not vote on this poll

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  #16  
Old 03-17-2008, 09:28 PM
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GB not knockin you or anything. But id like to see you try and push out 400hp out of amotor with 375k miles.
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  #17  
Old 03-17-2008, 09:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by benzforlife View Post
GB not knockin you or anything. But id like to see you try and push out 400hp out of amotor with 375k miles.
It'll be great for that first revolution....
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  #18  
Old 03-17-2008, 10:15 PM
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I'll try to enquire about a "performance tune" when I visit the injection shop this week.
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  #19  
Old 03-17-2008, 10:45 PM
giles@performancediesel
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 5
10mm plungers

Hi Everyone

Glad to have been contacted by Monomer


I will do some research into this and i think i can come up with some
new plungers for everyone.

i must warn you guys though, New Plungers from Bosch are expensive
to the tune of about $100-$150 each + the cost of disassembling the
entire pump to install the new plungers and possibly new Delivery
Valves.

i pose a question of the pumps that have been done before from
Finland, does he install new larger plungers?
if you want recalibration of your pumps in terms of performance
then i can and have done this already, but the 5.5mm plungers
in these pumps are very limited to how much i can increase it.

i have done quite a few in the past and driven several with excellent
better than stock driveability.

hope this helps eveyone

Giles

Last edited by Giles@PDI; 03-17-2008 at 10:47 PM. Reason: Added name
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  #20  
Old 03-17-2008, 11:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Giles@PDI View Post
i pose a question of the pumps that have been done before from Finland, does he install new larger plungers?
Yes. So far as we can tell the Finns have only tweaked the M pump. They install 7mm elements. They also add external adjustments as well, but I don't have any detailed information on that...
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  #21  
Old 03-17-2008, 11:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tymbrymi View Post
Yes. So far as we can tell the Finns have only tweaked the M pump. They install 7mm elements. They also add external adjustments as well, but I don't have any detailed information on that...
Ignorant questions:

What are the main differences between the M/MW pumps, and do the Finns choose the M pump due to availability, or for some other performance reasons?? also why is it that that they had two different style IP's??
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  #22  
Old 03-18-2008, 11:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JDmills View Post
What are the main differences between the M/MW pumps, and do the Finns choose the M pump due to availability, or for some other performance reasons?? also why is it that that they had two different style IP's??
Not an ignorant question at all! The MW pump was used on all US spec OM61x engines. In Europe the NA diesels use the M pump, while the turbo diesels used the MW pump. For the OM60x series of engines, US and Europe both use the M pump. So the Finns use the M pump mostly for availability. Also, they are mostly modding the OM60x series as it is a more modern engine design (crossflow head, etc) and that requires the M pump. Since they mostly use the M pump they have managed to find a supplier for custom 7mm elements (6mm is the max available from Bosch that we know of).

As to why there are two different styles of pumps... not so sure on that. Personally, I think the progression to the M pump was due to a better governor design that has more desirable characteristics for cars instead of trucks. I have no evidence of this though...

Hope that helped!
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  #23  
Old 03-18-2008, 05:30 PM
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I'm glad I asked, thanks John for taking the time to answer that question.
Jason
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  #24  
Old 03-18-2008, 11:44 PM
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So being familiar with other than the pump in question, I might be way off but, ...

In pumps I've messed with (CAT), there is a cam, the profile of the lobes determine the injection rate. Higher RPMs need a faster injection rate to make up for the "port effect", that delay that occurs between the pressure pulse at the pump and the pulse hitting the nozzles (yes steel lines do stretch).

For more fuel, usually turning up the rack will allow more max. fuel, basically allowing more stroke of the plunger = higher fuel volume. The aneroid / ALDA will limit this vs mainfold pressure, another adjustment. The throttle pedal is basically moving a mechanical governor, and the limit of that governor or pedal travel is what is referred to as "turning up the rack".

There is usually only a little adjustment available to turn up the rack, after which larger plungers will be necessary to increase the fuel volume per stroke. If too large a plunger is used it will create more stress on the lifter and cam plus being hard to regulate with your foot. Further, the nozzles would need to be matched to the new injection profile and volume.

Am I wrong in applying this to a bosch M pump? I've done this before, but a 10.4l direct-injection CAT is a little different from a 3l Mercedes I'm sure, ... would be fun to get into my spare pump and see what can be done though.
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  #25  
Old 03-18-2008, 11:55 PM
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So far no one has found plungers between 5.5 and 10mm for the MW pump. 10's seem much to large, and the stock 5.5's cannot deliver more than 200HP it seems, and no one in the USA has hit that figure yet with a dyno any of us have seen posted. A simple change to a M myna pump with no other changes puts a proven 140 RWHP, and plenty left over from the pump if you want it. A myna pump is about $2K. This is all for a 617-95X.
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  #26  
Old 03-19-2008, 12:04 AM
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well, why not MAKE them?



I've never seen the inside of a m/mw pump. Anything that bosch makes, I'm sure can be dup'd for cheaper (esp. with tool/die/machine shops needing any work possible)


sounds like some lathe turning, heat treating, and grinding.
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  #27  
Old 03-19-2008, 10:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Monomer View Post
well, why not MAKE them?
$$$$$

Quote:
Originally Posted by Monomer View Post
I've never seen the inside of a m/mw pump. Anything that bosch makes, I'm sure can be dup'd for cheaper (esp. with tool/die/machine shops needing any work possible)

sounds like some lathe turning, heat treating, and grinding.
I think you underestimate the tolerances involved. I can't give you exact numbers, but this isn't something you can take to your average (or even excellent) machine shop. You have to find manufacturers of other diesel components, and get them to make it. There are some in China that are willing, but I don't remember who it was. Then you run into minimum quantity orders.

Even then the quality will not be up to Bosch levels. For example, the Myna Diesel 7mm elements are available for purchase on their own, and they reportedly don't have the same consistency in injection delivery (idle is rougher, etc).

My $.02
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  #28  
Old 03-19-2008, 01:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MTUpower View Post
and the stock 5.5's cannot deliver more than 200HP it seems,
...........since the engine currently puts out 123hp, I'd be thrilled with 200 hp. If the stock MW pump can do that.........why spend a fortune on more?

As you mentioned, nobody has even come close to that figure with a verifiable dyno run at 150 hp at the wheels.
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  #29  
Old 03-19-2008, 11:17 PM
Monomer's Avatar
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tymbrymi View Post
$$$$$


I think you underestimate the tolerances involved. I can't give you exact numbers, but this isn't something you can take to your average (or even excellent) machine shop. You have to find manufacturers of other diesel components, and get them to make it. There are some in China that are willing, but I don't remember who it was. Then you run into minimum quantity orders.

Even then the quality will not be up to Bosch levels. For example, the Myna Diesel 7mm elements are available for purchase on their own, and they reportedly don't have the same consistency in injection delivery (idle is rougher, etc).

My $.02
Bosch arnt doing anything to spectacular. They use the same lathes and grinders that can be found at any machine shop that's properly tooled up.


Bosch quality? Have you SEEN what they're India nozzles look like?


tolerances can be held to a millionth pretty easily these days. Someones gotta know a friend in the trade, usually you can abuse the machines "after hours" (or atleast, I did)

When we used to order Danley die punches, they were $15/each. Each were ground to a the ten thousandth. All were hardened to 65hrc (if I remember correctly) before grinding.


High speed machining is cheap.
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  #30  
Old 03-19-2008, 11:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Monomer View Post
tolerances can be held to a millionth pretty easily these days.
This is a factually incorrect statement.

Just for the record, you'd be talking about .000001".

Name a single machine shop that can hold that tolerance.........please.
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