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W123/OM617 modification questions (Intercooler/Myna/VNT/Lighting & cosmetics/Etc.)
W123/OM617 modification questions (Intercooler/Myna/VNT/Lighting & cosmetics/Etc.)
Hey guys! Just happened across this site and I think the knowledge base here is just great. So I hope I can find some answers here. I'm new to the MB game but old to the (bio)diesel game. Had my MB for about four months. 1983 300D with 150k on the clock. Had a bad head, just replaced it. Also worked on a Ford F150 that I swapped a OM617 engine into (was my bosses project, not proud of it honestly). So I'm no stranger to the inner and outer workings of the engine. So to begin with, MOAR POWAR?! I would like to see what kind of REALISTIC power I can get out of my 617. I've seen 140-150 claims from various sources, is that possible? And how reliable can it be made? What I've done so far: -Cold air intake w/K&N 'style' filter / Stock crankcase breather delete (mini cone filter - NOT WORKING WELL) -ALDA turned up all the way -Homemade boost controller set @ 14PSI -A/C vent mounted boost gauge NOW on to the mods: INTERCOOLER: Obviously - turbocharged, so next step is to intercool, right? What are some of your experiences intercooling a 617? What kind of HP gains can be made by this swap? MYNA DIESEL: I've read bits and pieces about those Finnish modded pumps unlocking the potential of these Mercedes diesel engines.. but really, what is the hype? What is so special about what they do to these pumps half a world away? VARIABLE GEOMETRY TURBO: I've seen a few posts about these VNTs and VGTs mounted onto the 617, but sifting through the "how cool" and "I want!" posts made me dizzy, what is the verdict with this new(er) technology added to these classic automobiles? What - if any - HP was gained? Or was it all shaving ET's? LIGHTING: I'm interesting in hearing about lighting modifications from other members, mainly HID / projector / LED upgrades. I'm looking to modernize my 300D slightly - as far as cosmetics go. My big lighting question is: are there any aftermarket replacements for those darn fog lights? I have a pretty good plan for the main headlights: I'm going to try buying some of those plastic H4 housings littered across eBay - hollow them out and mount Bosch Bi-Xenon projectors in them - just a little something not to blind oncoming traffic. OTHER STUFF: -Has anyone fabbed up an oil catch can for factory air cleaner deletes? Pictures? -AAZ injectors? Can't remember where I read about them, but I was interested. Info? -Does a 5 speed manual transmission mate up to the 617? -What is a typical rear end ratio for this vehicle and are there replacements/alternatives? The high RPM's at higher speeds seem ridiculous and also seems like you could get better MPG's with a smaller number. For instance: My El Camino puts out (maybe) 120HP, naturally aspirated. 4 spd auto w/0.70 OD and a 2.41 rear end. I got upwards of 30MPG and still had some bite off the line! -More to come . . . MY GOAL(S): (1)To end up with a decently fast and powerful little diesel. I'm not expecting Skyline or Lancer performance, just enough to toast a Honda or two.. (2)I also want to keep it green, biodiesel/WVO/SVO/Whatever is a must for me and has been from the beginning. So on to the next item of my goal... (3)Mileage. I know it contradicts section 1 of my amendment, but there is a happy balance between over gearing and lots of bottom end torque. Over-gearing is one thing, but are not these beasts severely under-geared? Anyone else have any other performance upgrades that I didn't bring up? Throw them my way! That's about it! Let me know what you guys think.
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Vehicles: 2002 SLK 230 Gone but not forgotten: 1983 300D 1981 El Camino 'OILBRNR' - 6.2L diesel OM617 powered '86 F150 1984 BMW 524td 2001 VW Beetle TDI 1994 Sunurban 4x4 6.5L diesel Last edited by CoyoteStarfish; 06-17-2008 at 04:09 AM. |
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#3
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No power from just the intercooler, but it will decreace your exhaust temps to allow you to turn up the fuel for more power. Quote:
They take a Euro "M" pump, add 7 mm (I think) elements to flow more fuel, and external adjustment to allow easy tuning while the pump is on the car. The US turbo cars have the "MW" pump which has not had as much work done on tweaking it. Quote:
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300D (non-turbo):3.46 300D (turbo): 3.07 300D ('85 only): 2.88 You can also find a 2.46 from a gasser. I would not go any lower than 3.07 with a manual. Edit: looks like Lance beat me to the punch.
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1979 240D- 316K miles - VGT Turbo, Intercooler, Stick Shift, Many Other Mods - Daily Driver 1982 300SD - 232K miles - Wife's Daily Driver 1986 560SL - Wife's red speed machine |
#4
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Hey! It's Turbo617, I remember you from YouTube. Bashing my biodiesel ways. Hah! Small world
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I saw a few catchcan designs on a Ricer forum I might addapt. Picts to come I suppose. Quote:
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While we're at it with the subject of transmissions: What are the gear ratios for the four speed automatic and manual and the five speed manual? Quote:
Cam back to timing spec? I'll give the injection advance a try.
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Vehicles: 2002 SLK 230 Gone but not forgotten: 1983 300D 1981 El Camino 'OILBRNR' - 6.2L diesel OM617 powered '86 F150 1984 BMW 524td 2001 VW Beetle TDI 1994 Sunurban 4x4 6.5L diesel |
#5
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Yeah I think he's suggesting replacing the timing chain. They regularly stretch enough over time to allow the cam to be 4 or more degrees out of perfect timing with the crank...
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1984 300 Coupe TurboDiesel Silver blue paint over navy blue interior 2nd owner & 2nd engine in an otherwise 99% original unmolested car ~210k miles on the clock 1986 Ford F250 4x4 Supercab Charcoal & blue two tone paint over burgundy interior Banks turbo, DRW, ZF-5 & SMF conversion 152k on the clock - actual mileage unknown |
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Air-water is much more compact but it does not cool it as well and its much heavier. Quote:
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------------------------------------------------------------------ 123-SERIES GEARBOX RATIOS & FINAL DRIVE RATIOS opt = optional std = standard gear ratios in order 1-2-3-4(-5) R = reverse gear GEARBOXES (Note the code letters were created for this document - they are not official Daimler-Benz codes) 4sp manual A 3.90-2.30-1.41-1.00 R3.66 B 3.91-2.32-1.42-1.00 R3.78 C 4.23-2.36-1.49-1.00 R4.10 D 3.91-2.17-1.37-1.00 R3.78 E 3.98-2.29-1.45-1.00 R3.74 5sp manual F 3.82-2.20-1.40-1.00-0.81 R3.71 4sp auto G 3.98-2.39-1.46-1.00 R5.47 H 3.90-2.30-1.41-1.00 R3.66 J 4.25-2.41-1.49-1.00 R5.67 K 3.68-2.41-1.44-1.00 R5.14 FINAL DRIVES 3.92 3.69 3.58 3.54 3.46 3.07 2.88 W123 saloons (1) 200D 1976-Sep80, std 4sp manual A 3.92 (2) 200D Oct80-Aug83, std 4sp manual B 3.92 (3) 200D Sep83 on, std 4sp manual C 3.92 (4) 200D Feb82 on, opt 5sp manual F 3.92 (5) 200D to Jun83, opt 4sp auto G 3.92 (6) 200D Jul83 on, opt 4sp auto H 3.92 (7) 220D std 4sp manual A 3.92 (8) 220D opt 4sp auto B 3.92 (9) 240D to Sep80, std 4sp manual A 3.69 (10) 240D Oct80-Aug83, std 4sp manual B 3.69 (11) 240D Sep83 on, std 4sp manual C 3.69 (12) 300D std 4sp manual A 3.46 (13) 300D opt 5sp manual F 3.46 (14) 300D to Jun83, opt 4sp auto G 3.46 (15) 300D Jul83 on, opt 4sp auto J 3.46 (16) 300D T to Sep84, std 4sp auto K 3.07 (17) 300D T Oct84 on, std 4sp auto K 2.88 (18) 200 to Jul80, std 4sp manual, as A 3.92 (19) 200 to Jul80, opt 4sp auto, as G 3.92 (20) 200 Aug80-Aug83, std 4sp manual as B 3.69 (21) 200 Aug80 on, std 4sp manual D 3.69 (22) 200 Oct81 on, opt 5sp manual F 3.69 (23) 200 Aug80-May83, opt 4sp auto G 3.69 (24) 200 Jun83 on, opt 4sp auto J 3.69 (25) 230 std 4sp manual A 3.69 (26) 230 opt 4sp auto G 3.69 (27) 230E to Aug83, std 4sp manual B 3.58 (28) 230E Sep83 on, std 4sp manual D 3.58 (29) 230E Oct81 on, opt 5sp manual F 3.58 (30) 230E to Apr83, opt 4sp auto G 3.58 (31) 230E May83 on, opt 4sp auto J 3.58 (32) 250 to Apr77, std 4sp manual A 3.69 (33) 250 May77-Sep81, std 4sp manual E 3.69 (34) 250 Oct81 on, std 4sp manual E 3.58 (35) 250 Oct81 on, opt 5sp manual F 3.58 (36) 250 to Sep81, opt 4sp auto G 3.69 (37) 250 Oct81 on, opt 4sp auto K 3.58 (38) 280 to Apr77, std 4sp manual A 3.54 (39) 280 May77-Oct77, std 4sp manual E 3.54 (40) 280 Nov77 on, std 4sp manual E 3.58 (41) 280 to Oct77, opt 4sp auto G 3.54 (42) 280 Nov77 on, opt 4sp auto G 3.58 (43) 280E to Apr77, std 4sp manual A 3.54 (44) 280E May77 to Oct77, std 4sp manual E 3.54 (45) 280E Nov77 on, std 4sp manual E 3.58 (46) 280E Oct81 on, opt 5sp manual F 3.58 (47) 280E to Oct77, opt 4sp auto G 3.54 (48) 280E Nov77-Sep81, opt 4sp auto G 3.58 (49) 280E Oct81 on, opt 4sp auto K 3.58 S123 estates/station wagons (50) 240TD to Sep80, std 4sp manual as A 3.69 (51) 240TD Oct80-Aug83, std 4sp manual B 3.69 (52) 240TD Sep83 on, std 4sp manual C 3.69 (53) 240TD Feb82 on, opt 5sp manual F 3.69 (54) 240TD to Jun83, opt 4sp auto G 3.69 (55) 240TD Jul83 on, opt 4sp auto J 3.69 (56) 300TD std 4sp manual A 3.46 (57) 300TD opt 5sp manual F 3.46 (58) 300TD to Jun83, opt 4sp auto G 3.46 (59) 300TD Jul83 on, opt 4sp auto J 3.46 (60) 300TD T to Aug81, std 4sp auto G 3.07 (61) 300TD T Sep81 on, std 4sp auto J 3.07 (62) 200T Aug80-Aug83, std 4sp manual B 3.69 (63) 200T Aug80 on, std 4sp manual D 3.69 (64) 200T Oct81 on, opt 5sp manual F 3.69 (65) 200T Aug80-May83, opt 4sp auto G 3.69 (66) 200T Jun83 on, opt 4sp auto J 3.69 (67) 230T std 4sp manual A 3.69 (68) 230T opt 4sp auto G 3.69 (69) 230TE to Aug83, std 4sp manual B 3.58 (70) 230TE Sep83 on, std 4sp manual D 3.58 (71) 230TE Oct81 on, opt 5sp manual F 3.58 (72) 230TE to Apr83, opt 4sp auto G 3.58 (73) 230TE May83 on, opt 4sp auto J 3.58 (74) 250T to Sep81, std 4sp manual E 3.69 (75) 250T Oct81 on, std 4sp manual E 3.58 (76) 250T Oct81 on, opt 5sp manual F 3.58 (77) 250T to Sep81, opt 4sp auto G 3.69 (78) 250T Oct81 on, opt 4sp auto K 3.58 (79) 280TE std 4sp manual E 3.58 (80) 280TE Oct81 on, opt 5sp manual F 3.58 (81) 280TE to Sep81, opt 4sp auto G 3.58 (82) 280TE Oct81 on, opt 4sp auto K 3.58 C123 coupes (83) 230C std 4sp manual E 3.69 (84) 230C opt 4sp auto G 3.69 (85) 230CE to Aug83, std 4sp manual B 3.58 (86) 230CE Sep83 on, std 4sp manual D 3.58 (87) 230CE Oct81 on, opt 5sp manual F 3.58 (88) 230CE to Apr83, opt 4sp auto G 3.58 (89) 230CE May83 on, opt 4sp auto J 3.58 (91) 280C to Oct77, std 4sp manual E 3.54 (92) 280C Nov77 on, std 4sp manual E 3.58 (93) 280C to Oct77, opt 4sp auto G 3.54 (94) 280C Nov77 on, opt 4sp auto G 3.58 (96) 280CE to Oct77, std 4sp manual E 3.54 (97) 280CE Nov77 on, std 4sp manual E 3.58 (98) 280CE Oct81 on, opt 5sp manual F 3.58 (99) 280CE to Oct77, opt 4sp auto G 3.54 (100) 280CE Nov77-Sep81, opt 4sp auto G 3.58 (101) 280CE Oct81 on, opt 4sp auto K 3.58 (102) 300CD std 4sp auto G 3.46 (103) 300CD T to Sep84, std 4sp auto K 3.07 (104) 300CD T Oct84 on, std 4sp auto K 2.88 Compiled from DaimlerChrysler specifications by Andrew Noakes 2003 ----------------------------------------------------------------- Quote:
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#7
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Holy. . .
But among all those statistics I think I eyeballed something alarming; am I getting this correct here? The fourth speed on a 4-speed auto is NOT overdrive? But rather just... drive? Quote:
And again, this is assuming here, does this mean that the only overdrive solution for this vehicle is the five speed stick? One other thing; I don't have my "bible" right in front of me but I can clearly remember something about the inner workings of the four and five speed manuals being identical except for the addon overdrive gear. Eh? Haynes manual, somewhere in the manual transmission section. Don't quote me on that until I find the book!
__________________
Vehicles: 2002 SLK 230 Gone but not forgotten: 1983 300D 1981 El Camino 'OILBRNR' - 6.2L diesel OM617 powered '86 F150 1984 BMW 524td 2001 VW Beetle TDI 1994 Sunurban 4x4 6.5L diesel |
#8
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I should have mentioned this before (and am amending it to my original post)
My goal(s) here: (1)To end up with a decently fast and powerful little diesel. I'm not expecting Skyline or Lancer performance, just enough to toast a Honda or two.. (2)I also want to keep it green, biodiesel/WVO/SVO/Whatever is a must for me and has been from the beginning. So on to the next item of my goal... (3)Mileage. I know it contradicts section 1 of my amendment, but there is a happy balance between over gearing and lots of bottom end torque. Over-gearing is one thing, but are not these beasts severely under-geared? It's hard NOT to "squeak" tires from first to second gear, even with a light foot! The looks I get from cops are great.. Zooooossssshh.... *PERT* ...zoooosh..
__________________
Vehicles: 2002 SLK 230 Gone but not forgotten: 1983 300D 1981 El Camino 'OILBRNR' - 6.2L diesel OM617 powered '86 F150 1984 BMW 524td 2001 VW Beetle TDI 1994 Sunurban 4x4 6.5L diesel |
#9
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I have a guy who is a god when it comes to aluminum welding. I could have him just delete the bump (or alternatively leave it) and fab a new one on the other side. Or am I still missing something?
__________________
Vehicles: 2002 SLK 230 Gone but not forgotten: 1983 300D 1981 El Camino 'OILBRNR' - 6.2L diesel OM617 powered '86 F150 1984 BMW 524td 2001 VW Beetle TDI 1994 Sunurban 4x4 6.5L diesel |
#10
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That means its shifting too firmly and stressing the driveline. Great way to break a flex disc on the driveshaft. |
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A/C Air to water intercooler? My air/water seems to give lower EGTs than your air/air. Quote:
__________________
1979 240D- 316K miles - VGT Turbo, Intercooler, Stick Shift, Many Other Mods - Daily Driver 1982 300SD - 232K miles - Wife's Daily Driver 1986 560SL - Wife's red speed machine |
#12
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Overdrive has been used heavily by marketing departments, it means only that the output shaft of the transmission is turning faster than the input shaft and really nothing about performance or economy.
So, if you have a .85:1 overdrive transmission on 4.11:1 gears, and 155/60-13 tires, you're turning much higher RPMs than a 1:1 transmission with 2.65:1 gears and 195/65-15 tires (87 300Dt). Really means nothing without the whole package, what are the revs/mile is what matters, I'm turning around 3000rpm at 80mph, with no overdrive. The "waste" in my opinion is the lack of lockup TC in the automatics. Don't worry so much about the overdrive if you're going to re-ratio the rear screw anyway. Quote:
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Gone to the dark side - Jeff |
#13
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I say air-water does not cool as well because the water is always slightly above the ambient air temperature and heats up as it progresses through the core vs air-air that has a limitless supply of cool airflow over the entire surface.
I know the difference is small but its still there. Quote:
Another option thats been tried is the mechanical linkage although it looses some of the VNT's low RPM boost benefits in normal driving. |
#14
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The pressure/vacuum actuator works quite well and it elligantly simple. Yours has the added benifit of fully opening or closing the vanes on command via valves but with a slightly more complex plumbing system. I have had excelent results with only the vacuum signal from the transmision and the boost signal from the turbo. Cruise at 65 is about 5-6 psi of boost, with around 8 psi of exhaust pressure. When I stomp on it the boost jumps up to 13-14 almost instantly.
__________________
1979 240D- 316K miles - VGT Turbo, Intercooler, Stick Shift, Many Other Mods - Daily Driver 1982 300SD - 232K miles - Wife's Daily Driver 1986 560SL - Wife's red speed machine |
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