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Building Power
Hey guys. I have been looking at buying a 300d or similar for a project car. I build performance light/medium duty trucks for a living, but want something a little different/cheaper as a toy. There are a few '84-'86 300d's for sale around here for $500-$2000. Whats better, the auto or manual? I am more of a manual guy for reliability, but autos are nice for the track (boosted launch, etc). Any issues with either? Availability of upgrades? How much power can you get out of one of these motors (dyno proven)? What has to be done to beef them up? As in do they need o-rings/fire-rings, head studs, stronger rods, pistons, etc.?
I obviously dont know much about these cars/motors, but was thinking of approaching it similarly a ’94-’97 12v cummins. Intake/exhaust upgrades, airwerks 200 or 300 series turbo (maybe compounds?), intercooler, fuel pump, head studs, internal injection pump mods (need to learn more about the pump) injectors, maybe water/meth injection, gauges, clutch/trans upgrades, cam, valve springs, and so on. How does this sound for this motor? What about the rest of the car? Where is a good place to find parts? Any other info? Thanks! I also put one too many m's in my user name (oops!) Any way to fix that?? Mike |
#2
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Be prepared to spend about $5000 in parts to even touch 300hp. If you want power, a MB definitely isn't the cheap way. No upgrades exist except a single source for the injection pump (in Finland), everything else you will have to make or adapt from something else.
ALL 300D's are automatic. If you want manual you'll have to convert one. Those that are manual from the factory are non-turbo. The 82-85 300D/CD/TD is good for 140hp before needing a different injection pump and can be pumped up to 300hp with enough money. The 87 300D/TD is good for 175hp before needing a new IP. They are known to be good to 300hp with bone stock internals and 500hp with custom-made rods. Last edited by ForcedInduction; 05-17-2009 at 12:28 AM. |
#3
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Ha, nother truck guy! LOL, theres not a whole lot we can do to them without going all out. The Bosch MW-pump on these is crap for performance. The only decent option is to send a euro M-pump to Myna Diesel in Finland. I have sent an e-mail to CDS to inquire if they can do anything.
The Fin's have got the OM617 5cyl over 400hp iirc EDIT: SEE ABOVE POST Good mods are to get it in perfect running condition stock, then max out what little pump adustments are avalible, add an intercooler and a VVT turbo and go!
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87' 300D, Currently undergoing an OM606 swap/build! SUPERTURBO!!! 03' 2500HD Dmax + goodies! 82' 300SD, parting out! 93' 300TE 4matic, parting out! 83' 240D Project Cheap Drive 89' 300E, parting out! 74' Datsun 510 wagon 88' RX7 10thAE, 13B track car build soon Skippy~ As for perception: Drive what you like and can afford. Those who don't like it can supply vacuum to one of your components. LOL If you need parts, I have some! |
#4
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Thanks for the replies. When I said cheap, I mean cheaper than buying another $20,000 electronic diesel truck, and putting another $15-20,000 into it. I am up to the challenge of finding more fuel in the MB. I just want to be sure that the motor and trans can be built to hold up. What kind of trans is it? Does it have a lock-up T.C.? Where can the custom rods be found? Are rods the only real weak link? What does it take to blow a head gasket? What is the big difference between the '82-'85, and the '87's you talked about? Thanks again.
Mike |
#5
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Hi Mike,
Welcome from another truck guy... Here's a short translation from MB into "truck" Diesel: OM617: 5 cyl, 3l, iron head. Non-crossflow iron head. Legendary reliability but tough to get a lot of power out of due to limitations of flow and fuel. Has an inline M or MW pump. OM603: 6 cyl 3/3.5l, Aluminum crossflow head. More modern design but watch out for 3.5l engines known to bend rods. Also watch out for early aluminum heads which can crack if overheated. Has an inline M pump with 5.5mm elements. Design is similar to a 12 valve Cummins. Easier to build more power with this one. OM606 Turbo: '98/'99 E300. Evolutionary design similar to OM603. Has a 24 valve head. Much like a 24 valve Cummins but pump is still inline with 7mm elements and is electronically controlled. Elements are compatible with M pumps. This engine has the most power potential. As for performance parts, it's pretty much either fab your own or get them from Europe. The engines respond to the same tweaks as the Cummins for the most part but I haven't seen many people changing injectors but rather investing mostly in performance pumps and improved induction/exhaust systems.
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-Evan Benz Fleet: 1968 UNIMOG 404.114 1998 E300 2008 E63 Non-Benz Fleet: 1992 Aerostar 1993 MR2 2000 F250 |
#6
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Rods
If you get serious with a 603, we have the connecting rods about ready. Not a cheap date, but less than aftermarket Cummins rods.
4340 Steel Although I think the stock rods will be fine past 300, but 300 is lame
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1987 300TD ( under resto ) 1987 300E SOLD 1987 300D 1993 400E 1997 Dodge/Cummins 3500 2004 E320 Wagon SOLD 2006 BMW M5 Yes, they will go 204 MPH SOLD 2008 BMW 535i SOLD (POS) 2011 BMW X5 Diesel 2013 X5M Tuned to 700+ HP Stupid Fast SOLD 2016 Nissan Titan XD Cummins 5.0! 2004 Audi Quattro ( track car ) AutoX machine 2010 BMW 328i ( sometimes track, but the Audi is faster ) I own maybe 100 t-shirts and they all smell like Diesel fuel and test oil...... |
#7
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Starting to learn a little bit now. So, the 617 is maybe the most solid motor, just harder to get power out of? I just don’t want a motor that is going to have known problems before I start playing with it (cracked head, bent rods). I assume the 617 would probably be the least expensive too. What cars have the 617? What type of injectors are used? Is is something that would easily be edm'ed, or honed?
Don, are you on every diesel related forum known to man? LOL! It's cool you're working on rods. Mike |
#8
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Quote:
The 617 is a strong engine but severely limited by airflow. OM606 engines can make 500hp with a single turbo, maybe even more if you figure out some compounds, but the 617 won't make much more than 350hp without very high boost pressures to push past the 2 valves. From Antti A. at Myna- Quote:
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#9
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I'd be curious about those rods. I think they would fit the OM606 too.
__________________
-Evan Benz Fleet: 1968 UNIMOG 404.114 1998 E300 2008 E63 Non-Benz Fleet: 1992 Aerostar 1993 MR2 2000 F250 |
#10
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To get Antti A's estimate out of a 617 what needs to be done besides a Myna pump, intercooler, and VNT? Are we talking custom connecting rods, head work (don't know what could really be done with the limited space), stronger fasteners, custom crank, custom cam?
My wants are less ambitious than 380hp but it would be nice to know what needs to be done besides the standard formula. |
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Somebody has got to have gotten a little out of hand with one of these 617's and blown a few things up. I'de like to learn from their mistakes! There are several cars around here with 617's for sale for a pretty good price. The newer motors would be nice to make a little more power with, but the cars cost so much more.....
Mike |
#12
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I'm working on mine but hopefully I don't blow it up in the process!
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#13
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Something no one has mentioned and is likely a big factor when comparing to your experience with Cummins, is that all the engines mentioned here are IDI. This equates to less power across the board.
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For Sale: 1982 MB 300TD 1995 Chevrolet Suburban 6.5TD Sold: 1980 IH Scout Traveler- Nissan SD33T Diesel |
#14
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Very true, about 15% through pumping and heat conduction losses.
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#15
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The 603's are the way to go here. Cheap, and will make an easy 300hp with very little effort. Porting, cam, turbo, perhaps some propane...
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