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  #1  
Old 11-08-2010, 12:49 AM
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Engine swap for w123

I want to do an engine swap in my w123 / 617 and wanted to know what the best modern mercedes diesel engine to use? I want a good amount of power but I don't want to go crazy.

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  #2  
Old 11-11-2010, 02:43 PM
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Originally Posted by KrautWagonGTI View Post
I want to do an engine swap in my w123 / 617 and wanted to know what the best modern mercedes diesel engine to use? I want a good amount of power but I don't want to go crazy.

Prolly be the OM.606 from the 96-99 W210 series cars--Any later and they all go Common-Rail!--ie, mega complicated and computerised....

OM.606.962 DOHC Turbodiesel, quad-valve, about 177 BHP in std. form

--Electronic pump and all that crap can be junked and a Mechanical pump from earlier OM.603 turbodiesel engine fitted in its place. Turbo really needs upgrading as the original is Hugely Restrictive, and has a vac operated W.G which can be a pain to control HX35 is a good one apparently....

These engines have proved Very Tunable, with up to 600 BHP possible Without even opening up the engine and altering any internals!

Have to replace the transmission (722.3 or 717.43x from W124/W201 Or you could put a 716.640, 6 speed Manual trans from a 220-270CDi in there with a custom flywheel) and adapt/make gearbox mounts/shift-linkage to suit.

Prop-shaft will need shortening/lengthning to suit new engine/trans combo. If tuning for much more than say, 200-250 BHP the final-drive will need upgrading, maybe a different ratio depending on what trans you want, prolly ex W126....

Engine-Mount arms from 300SD (W126) with spacers are a tried and tested method...

I have one to fit my W123 but time and money are my current issues!
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Alastair AKA H.C.II South Wales, U.K. based member

W123, 1985 300TD Wagon, 256K,
-Most recent M.B. purchase, Cost-a-plenty, Gulps BioDiesel extravagantly, and I love it like an old dog.

W114, 1975 280E Custard Yellow,
-Great above decks needs chassis welding--Really will do it this year....
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  #3  
Old 11-17-2010, 07:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alastair View Post
Prolly be the OM.606 from the 96-99 W210 series cars--Any later and they all go Common-Rail!--ie, mega complicated and computerised....

OM.606.962 DOHC Turbodiesel, quad-valve, about 177 BHP in std. form

--Electronic pump and all that crap can be junked and a Mechanical pump from earlier OM.603 turbodiesel engine fitted in its place. Turbo really needs upgrading as the original is Hugely Restrictive, and has a vac operated W.G which can be a pain to control HX35 is a good one apparently....

These engines have proved Very Tunable, with up to 600 BHP possible Without even opening up the engine and altering any internals!

Have to replace the transmission (722.3 or 717.43x from W124/W201 Or you could put a 716.640, 6 speed Manual trans from a 220-270CDi in there with a custom flywheel) and adapt/make gearbox mounts/shift-linkage to suit.

Prop-shaft will need shortening/lengthning to suit new engine/trans combo. If tuning for much more than say, 200-250 BHP the final-drive will need upgrading, maybe a different ratio depending on what trans you want, prolly ex W126....

Engine-Mount arms from 300SD (W126) with spacers are a tried and tested method...

I have one to fit my W123 but time and money are my current issues!

Great info here! After talking with a lot of people over in europe the diesel performance idea gets better and better everytime.

How hard are the electronics and overall engine to learn about? I am a newbie to mercedes diesel, most of my knowledge comes from performance CIS injected gas w124's and w126's.

Any info or guidance would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks!
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  #4  
Old 11-17-2010, 12:29 PM
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Originally Posted by conski View Post
Great info here! After talking with a lot of people over in europe the diesel performance idea gets better and better everytime.

How hard are the electronics and overall engine to learn about? I am a newbie to mercedes diesel, most of my knowledge comes from performance CIS injected gas w124's and w126's.

Any info or guidance would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks!
Which engine are you thinking of...?

OM.606.962 has an Electronically controlled Mechanical fuel-injection-pump, an engine ECU and various sensors,--For tuning above about 220BHP, the pump needs modding anyway.

Prob is, It comms with the 722.6xx gearbox, and its ECU via CAN-BUS (Never heard of Manual E300TD W210) --So you gotta fit the box as well as its ECU--which mechanically is prolly simpler, but an electronic nightmare...

Now, whether the pair of ECU's comms with any 'Body related' ECU's as well, such as ABS, SRS, elect dashboard, etc, etc--Who knows!

I have heard of someone who fitted a Sprinter engine to a car (W201?) with all its ECU's etc, but cant 'break the Immobiliser'
--Maybe there's other issues with it too, I dunno...

Easiest way is drop the electronics and tune it mechanically, Thats what the Finns and others do....

Later Coomon-Rail Direct-Injection engines ain't as tuneable allegedly and you have all the issues above...
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Alastair AKA H.C.II South Wales, U.K. based member

W123, 1985 300TD Wagon, 256K,
-Most recent M.B. purchase, Cost-a-plenty, Gulps BioDiesel extravagantly, and I love it like an old dog.

W114, 1975 280E Custard Yellow,
-Great above decks needs chassis welding--Really will do it this year....
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  #5  
Old 11-17-2010, 05:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alastair View Post
Which engine are you thinking of...?

OM.606.962 has an Electronically controlled Mechanical fuel-injection-pump, an engine ECU and various sensors,--For tuning above about 220BHP, the pump needs modding anyway.

Prob is, It comms with the 722.6xx gearbox, and its ECU via CAN-BUS (Never heard of Manual E300TD W210) --So you gotta fit the box as well as its ECU--which mechanically is prolly simpler, but an electronic nightmare...

Now, whether the pair of ECU's comms with any 'Body related' ECU's as well, such as ABS, SRS, elect dashboard, etc, etc--Who knows!

I have heard of someone who fitted a Sprinter engine to a car (W201?) with all its ECU's etc, but cant 'break the Immobiliser'
--Maybe there's other issues with it too, I dunno...

Easiest way is drop the electronics and tune it mechanically, Thats what the Finns and others do....

Later Coomon-Rail Direct-Injection engines ain't as tuneable allegedly and you have all the issues above...
I was thinking the om603 in a w123 chassis, most likely a 300td (love those wagons with the yellow fogs). I was reading a bit over on superturbodiesel.com and found out that the biggest struggle with diesels is getting the inline pump to push out more fuel. Also saw that a common solution was to upgrade the elements. Once this was done then a bigger turbo (holset seems to be the most popular with the big HP Finns) could be installed or even adding a nice supercharger to the mix. Correct me if I am wrong in any of my thinking or have skipped a couple steps.

What kind of hp could I expect if I upgraded the elements to 7.5mm (guy on superturbodiesel.com does this and gets the parts from a guy in germany can't remember his name though right now) and also upgraded my turbo to say a big holset one (hx40?)?
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  #6  
Old 11-17-2010, 05:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by conski View Post
I was thinking the om603 in a w123 chassis, most likely a 300td (love those wagons with the yellow fogs). I was reading a bit over on superturbodiesel.com and found out that the biggest struggle with diesels is getting the inline pump to push out more fuel. Also saw that a common solution was to upgrade the elements. Once this was done then a bigger turbo (holset seems to be the most popular with the big HP Finns) could be installed or even adding a nice supercharger to the mix. Correct me if I am wrong in any of my thinking or have skipped a couple steps.

What kind of hp could I expect if I upgraded the elements to 7.5mm (guy on superturbodiesel.com does this and gets the parts from a guy in germany can't remember his name though right now) and also upgraded my turbo to say a big holset one (hx40?)?
I don't think it's that common because you need someone to calibrate/tune the ip after the big elements are installed. It's commonly talked about though. There was a guy in the states that was tuning the ip's but he has not been heard from in a while.

With 7.5 elements and a proper tune etc etc... 500hp is not unreasonable. Probably not very drivable though. I would be happy with 225-300 hp from my OM603.

The turbo normally isn't the problem.. it's fuel.
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  #7  
Old 11-17-2010, 05:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by conski View Post
I was thinking the om603 in a w123 chassis, most likely a 300td (love those wagons with the yellow fogs). I was reading a bit over on superturbodiesel.com and found out that the biggest struggle with diesels is getting the inline pump to push out more fuel. Also saw that a common solution was to upgrade the elements. Once this was done then a bigger turbo (holset seems to be the most popular with the big HP Finns) could be installed or even adding a nice supercharger to the mix. Correct me if I am wrong in any of my thinking or have skipped a couple steps.

What kind of hp could I expect if I upgraded the elements to 7.5mm (guy on superturbodiesel.com does this and gets the parts from a guy in germany can't remember his name though right now) and also upgraded my turbo to say a big holset one (hx40?)?
I'm thinking the HX40 is a bit on the large side for a DD especially for a 603....

Personally I'm looking at HX35 'Super' for my 606...

Tomnik has the elements in Germany for 'M' type and Derv Tuning in USA fits 'em...
(They MUST be fitted by Proper IP Shop, you Cannot do this yourself--Must be selectively fitted with rollers then the governor set up...)
__________________
http://i190.photobucket.com/albums/z...0TDnoplate.jpg

Alastair AKA H.C.II South Wales, U.K. based member

W123, 1985 300TD Wagon, 256K,
-Most recent M.B. purchase, Cost-a-plenty, Gulps BioDiesel extravagantly, and I love it like an old dog.

W114, 1975 280E Custard Yellow,
-Great above decks needs chassis welding--Really will do it this year....
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  #8  
Old 11-17-2010, 05:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alastair View Post
I'm thinking the HX40 is a bit on the large side for a DD especially for a 603....

Personally I'm looking at HX35 'Super' for my 606...

Tomnik has the elements in Germany for 'M' type and Derv Tuning in USA fits 'em...
(They MUST be fitted by Proper IP Shop, you Cannot do this yourself--Must be selectively fitted with rollers then the governor set up...)
ya him... last I heard he had disappeared. Has he reappeared?
__________________
08 R320 CDI current

Past
95 E420
87 300D Turbo 5spd
90 300TE
83 300SD
85 300TD
92 400E
85 190D


Last edited by ashedd; 11-17-2010 at 08:20 PM.
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  #9  
Old 11-17-2010, 06:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alastair View Post
I'm thinking the HX40 is a bit on the large side for a DD especially for a 603....

Personally I'm looking at HX35 'Super' for my 606...

Tomnik has the elements in Germany for 'M' type and Derv Tuning in USA fits 'em...
(They MUST be fitted by Proper IP Shop, you Cannot do this yourself--Must be selectively fitted with rollers then the governor set up...)
Yea those are the guys. And the way he tuned him they were basically plug and play as long as you let him know exactly what you wanted performance wise.

I was just throwing out a random turbo just for the hell of it, hx35 would be more reasonable for a dd though. But depending on how this build goes it could turn into more of a track car than a dd lol

Thanks for all the input/pointers!

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