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  #1  
Old 01-14-2011, 04:10 PM
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water cooled turbo

Recently purchased an 87 300tdt wagon, CA model with the #22 head, KKK K24 turbo.

I'm looking for a way to add water cooling- if there's a way to hybrid the K24 with a garret cartridge for instance like the garrett water cooled turbos used on the Swedish cars of the era. Swapping the whole turbo isn't out of the question but I wouldn't want to go backwards to the older water cooled garretts. So it would have to be something like the later SAAB models but I know space will be an issue.

1 reason is to boost the core temp a bit because it is an alternative fueled vehicle. The other reason is because my driving includes a lot of steep climbing so the water cooled turbos hold up much better and cool quicker. I put a water cooled TD04-10T in my D50 (mitsubishi turbo).

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Old 01-14-2011, 06:53 PM
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welcome to the forum!
at the top of the page, you will notice there are both performance diesel sections, and alternative fuel sections.
which are you more interested in with this question? I'll be happy to move the topic up there for you.
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  #3  
Old 01-14-2011, 09:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vstech View Post
welcome to the forum!
at the top of the page, you will notice there are both performance diesel sections, and alternative fuel sections.
which are you more interested in with this question? I'll be happy to move the topic up there for you.
Thought I got this in the performance section which is where it was intended.
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  #4  
Old 01-14-2011, 10:48 PM
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yeah. it's in the performance section, but you mentioned running on alternative fuels, and wanted to be sure this is where you want it.
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John HAUL AWAY, OR CRUSHED CARS!!! HELP ME keep the cars out of the crusher! A/C Thread
"as I ride with my a/c on... I have fond memories of sweaty oily saturdays and spewing R12 into the air. THANKS for all you do!

My drivers:
1987 190D 2.5Turbo
1987 190D 2.5Turbo
1987 190D 2.5-5SPEED!!!

1987 300TD
1987 300TD
1994GMC 2500 6.5Turbo truck... I had to put the ladder somewhere!
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  #5  
Old 01-15-2011, 08:04 AM
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Water cooling is solely for preventing oil coking on the bearings when the engine is shut off. It will not heat the air going into the engine and it will reduce the core temp.

Generally, only g@ssers need water cooling because their exhaust is far hotter than that of a diesel. Although modern emissions diesels are doing it because of the extreme temperatures involved with DPF regeneration.
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Old 01-15-2011, 10:13 PM
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Originally Posted by ForcedInduction View Post
Water cooling is solely for preventing oil coking on the bearings when the engine is shut off. It will not heat the air going into the engine and it will reduce the core temp.

Generally, only g@ssers need water cooling because their exhaust is far hotter than that of a diesel. Although modern emissions diesels are doing it because of the extreme temperatures involved with DPF regeneration.
For my driving it has to do with keeping the turbo cooled during daily steep climbs before shutting down (I live up an 18% grade road). Many European diesel cars are and have been using water cooled turbo such as the 4d56 model Mitsubishi cars that never came over here. Saab and Volvo as well. All TD shops I have talked to say there's no comparison in terms of better durability with water cooled turbos.

As far as core temp goes my experience has been that overall coolant core temp is increased as a result of water cooled turbos (not the turbo itself) but the coolant exiting from it contributing to the overall temp. My system uses heat exchangers to heat the fuel. Cooler air intake as always is the goal.

Basically the point here here is that I have to take apart the exhaust manifold to replace the ubiquitously busted coupling. My suspicion due to age is that the turbo needs rebuilding but haven't actually tested it yet.

So there's no question I could hybrid a garrett to add water cooling, probably even bolt a bigger compressor housing onto the same cartridge they used with the .42/.48 T-03.

So the first question is if anybody has done this with a KKK turbo, or if maybe the Porches used them on a later model than the K24 that's a match.

2nd - if that's impossible - maybe I should snag an older Volvo or Saab cartridge and try to piece it together with a larger housing. I have my eye on 1 now so it's a decision to make soon.
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  #7  
Old 01-15-2011, 10:27 PM
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Your car came either with the KKK that you have, or the .50 T3 (of which I have a spare if you're interested). The 3.5L OM603 came with a .55 T3.

Although there might be improvements to be made, the stock turbo usually makes at least 300k miles before any issue, which is usually the oil seal. Any turbo that you install at this point in the car's life will probably outlive the body.

If you do find a suitable upgrade, please post here as I'm interested in what you find out.
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Old 01-16-2011, 12:04 AM
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Originally Posted by babymog View Post
Your car came either with the KKK that you have, or the .50 T3 (of which I have a spare if you're interested). The 3.5L OM603 came with a .55 T3.

Although there might be improvements to be made, the stock turbo usually makes at least 300k miles before any issue, which is usually the oil seal. Any turbo that you install at this point in the car's life will probably outlive the body.

If you do find a suitable upgrade, please post here as I'm interested in what you find out.
Yeah you're probably right about the life of a new turbo. There's a fair amount of oil built up under the turbo seal so I'm thinking it may be time already.

My nephew had a 280Z turbo hybrid to water cooled and he may know what Garrett cartridges are compatible.

Edit in here: talked to my nephew and he thinks ALL garrett cartridges are the same which makes sense. You can likely put a water cooled cartridge in that .55 trim just as simply as any other.

The KKK turbos appear to have been water cooled in the K26 series which is the predecessor to the K24 and may have had a larger shaft but there's a hybrid in the Garrett T3 form that would work, now I'll just have to find the cartridge they're using.

The wastegate system is entirely different and changing that would mean basically scrapping the whole EGR setup which I'm totally willing to do but it has to be an upgraded turbo. I'm actually more than willing to scrap all that EGR crap, the new free flow exhaust system is already on the way. Ah, the joys of no smog check.

Last edited by mbzak; 01-16-2011 at 01:57 AM.
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  #9  
Old 01-16-2011, 02:13 AM
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OK so there's plenty of options in getting a water cooled bearing cartridge for the K24 however most seem to be complete new K24/K26 hybrids in a T3 format. There's 1 on ebay now in Poland. I'm sure there's a way to get that cartridge they're using without buying a new turbo but I will have to check that out next week and report back.

Well here it is in finality, another diesel turbo we don't have in the USA is abundant in the EU. Went through this with my D50 so it's not really news. The Audi S2 used a water cooled K24 which is the obvious match, so did the Audi 100 and 80.

With the K26 it is a larger shaft so you can bolt the cold side up to the smaller shaft of the K24 but that's somewhat futile since the K24 is an outperforming wheel even though it's smaller. Otherwise you just basically go with the K26.

So bottom line we'll see how long it takes me to get a K24 water cooled cartridge from across the pond.

Last edited by mbzak; 01-16-2011 at 03:29 AM.
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  #10  
Old 01-16-2011, 10:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mbzak View Post
For my driving it has to do with keeping the turbo cooled during daily steep climbs before shutting down (I live up an 18% grade road).
The exhaust isn't hot enough to coke the oil in your engine.

Quote:
All TD shops I have talked to say there's no comparison in terms of better durability with water cooled turbos.
...and lasting 250k+ miles is a bad reputation for half a million MB's?

Quote:
My system uses heat exchangers to heat the fuel.
Diesel and BioDiesel do not need to be heated. WVO is illegal on public roads.

Quote:
So the first question is if anybody has done this with a KKK turbo
KKK and Garrett are not compatible at all. You have a T3 flange, your selection of turbos is nearly limitless with that flange, pick one that already has a water core. Don't try to hack stuff together when there are countless off the shelf options that will work better.
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  #11  
Old 01-16-2011, 04:37 PM
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I'm still not convinced that there is a need for water cooling the turbo.

Turbocharged gasoline cars have some real heat problems when run hard, but turbodiesels are significantly different. Even NA gassers can have problems with overheating the exhaust manifolds.

The big reason that I always choose diesel over gasoline for anything large is simple, I can keep my foot to the wood for a long mountain grade on a diesel without damage, on a gasser your ECU will probably pull the power back as valve temps climb too high to prevent detonation, exhaust temps get to glowing-iron temps, etc.

If you're planning to make some modifications to the engine to significantly increase horsepower, and use it for extended periods on the firewall, I can see the benefit. For anything less I'd say your money is better spent intercooling the car. JMO.
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  #12  
Old 01-16-2011, 05:25 PM
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Or buy one of those $20 turbo timers on ebay.
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  #13  
Old 02-05-2011, 07:28 PM
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Originally Posted by ForcedInduction View Post
Diesel and BioDiesel do not need to be heated. WVO is illegal on public roads.
WVO isn't illegal on public roads. It is not registered by the EPA as vehicle fuel, nor is it regulated or certified with regard to emissions, but that is in no way the same thing as "illegal to use".
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Old 02-06-2011, 02:18 PM
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You ever been pulled over by the EPA? Not registered by the EPA means it isn't legal to manufacture and sell as vehicle fuel, not to use. I bet you couldn't pay a cop to cite you for running WVO.

Banana peels aren't registered as vehicle fuel either, but if you make a vehicle that burns banana peels, no one is going to stop you. If you start trying to sell BananaGas, though, that's when you get to talk to the gov'mint.
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  #15  
Old 02-08-2011, 06:21 AM
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Its illegal because it isn't registered. The answer is simple; get it registered!
If VO is as "clean" is everyone claims, why is that such a difficult concept to bring to fruition?

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