I must be slacking as someone else picked this up before me.

The best way to sum up this thread is that all the screw turning in the world is only going to get you back to original stock and a few extra HP, can't expect much more. Real power requires more air and more fuel, 5.5 elements are only going to provide so much.

__________________
http://superturbodiesel.com/images/sig.04.10.jpg
1995 E420 Schwarz
1995 E300 Weiss
#1987 300D Sturmmachine
#1991 300D Nearly Perfect
#1994 E320 Cabriolet
#1995 E320 Touring
#1985 300D Sedan
OBK #42

Although it is true that the 5.5mm elements will only supply so much "usable" fuel, the governor starts pulling that fuel off very quickly to keep the emissions down. Delaying the reduction of fuel until a higher RPM will increase the lower end / mid range torque, where 99% of all driving takes place.

The goal is to shift the fueling curve to increase the useable power with in the normal driving ranges. Full power is limited to fuel and air as you stated, which really only matters to a drag racer. The daily driver would benefit from access to more bottom end / mid range power, and the top end power decay can be delayed as well, which will help in passing.

Yes, all of the mods I performed really opened the top end. The tc adjustment was the only one that had a meaningful improvement at the low end.

__________________
http://superturbodiesel.com/images/sig.04.10.jpg
1995 E420 Schwarz
1995 E300 Weiss
#1987 300D Sturmmachine
#1991 300D Nearly Perfect
#1994 E320 Cabriolet
#1995 E320 Touring
#1985 300D Sedan
OBK #42

I'm interested in the top end. Other than warming up and waiting for the starter to flag me on, idle is not of much concern for what I'll be asking this engine to do. Different applications, different needs.

As a newcomer to the forum it's interesting that everyone has a different idea of what "right" is. I guess I'm like that on dyno issues, having 31 1/2 years+ experience in this area. I "know" what works yet lots of people would disagree with me. I'm willing to let anyone mess with the IP tune at the track and we can see what makes the greatest top speed. I'm eager to learn this stuff.

Dan

Be very careful with that attitude my new friend... lol. Those who yell the loudest, usually know the least. Many members have had their eyes opened to this over the past year.

I have had cars brought to me, who’s owners used "other" instructions to adjust the governor with poor results, for me to straighten out.

I did mod a RW governor for a track car where the only governor left was the Idle governor. The Torque Control and Max Speed Governors were eliminated. It was a lot of fun lol.

I would recommend that you read my doc that is linked a few posts above, you will see that I address the idle control issue after "ANY" adjustment.

Any interest in larger elements?

A member on the other forum gained 28hp on his first adjustment, with more fuel left, but he needs more air before he can turn it up any more.

Ignorance sponsors fear, and fear is an attention getter, therefore, ignorance gets the most attention.

I look at it this way, you have two different philosophies for governor adjustment, one is crude, brute force, the other is refined and elegant.

My way allows the max tolerable fueling to be sustained in the power band you want, with better bottom and mid range to pull out of the corners. The other method will over fuel initially and then will fall off quickly, or you will have to get out of the throttle quick due to EGTs, let alone the Idle issues of which there are no instructions on how to correct them.

Now to be clear, I could give a flip who you want to believe, I feel that I have a strong enough track record to have it speak for it's self. Do the reading, ask questions, and make informed decisions, and remember that free advice is usually worth every penny.

Please explain the elephants - er - elements. You guys use lots of terms that us MB newcomers don't know. My answer is - If it makes top end power - SURE I'm interested! Please explain.

Dan

LOL...You have a lot of reading to do

The element, (or plunger and barrel), is what pumps the fuel to the injector.

The problem with the small elements (5.5mm) is that the duration of injection increases too much to max them out. Where as with larger elements, more fuel can be delivered in less time, allowing it to be used to make power instead of smoke and high EGTs.

I am probably going to be building a couple MW Superpumps this winter for a select few if you are interested. This would be a pump and nozzle package to keep everything balanced.

We can discuss more privately, PM me if you are interested.

From my experaince removing the rack limiter only gave a small gain. Turning up the torque control gave a much better gain as well as a drivability improvement. By giving more power in the mid range. Return to idle is an improperly adjusted idle control(inside the ip). really needs to be turned in(clockwise) to set a stable idle. It can be set with the engine running to get the idle just right. The outer idle adjustment takes care of return to idle, basically how fast it will return to idle.

By the way set up "purple computers" car today runs nice now, needs an exhaust though.

__________________
1977 240D turbo

I would like to thank the moderators for promptly addressing the issue, it is too bad that it was necessary in the first place.

I have gone back edited all my previous posts, deleting any trace of it ( any quoted references).

If everyone who has any reference to the issue in their previous posts, could delete those portions of the post, the thread will be purged of it, and back on track.

How did it turn out?

What did you do to it?

I see that this thread has been edited by the moderators.

I understand that this is because someone who has been banned from the forum posted information under a new user name.

At present I do not know enough information about injector pumps to comment about what was written - and I have a feeling that perhaps more was written whilst I was asleep so I've missed it!

However, I think that the two links that were given in a post that I saw yesterday do contain information that can help others like myself who are still trying to learn about the subject. So here they are:-

Bosch RW Governor Operation

Injection Pump fuel adjustment for the MW and M pumps, pyrometer install - Mercedes Forum - Mercedes Benz Enthusiast Forums

Please note - I am not taking sides.

If anything this is a freedom of the press thing!

I encourage all who wish to learn about a subject to consider differing points of view. Look at what is being said rather than how it is being said.


I have started to play about with a spare IP and I am slowly getting around to taking it to bits - I'm being somewhat delayed by life at the moment - but I plan to start naming parts and pointing stuff out when I learn about it in this thread here =>

Papa's got a brand new om617 IP to play with!

__________________
1992 W201 190E 1.8 171,000 km - Daily driver
1981 W123 300D ~ 100,000 miles / 160,000 km - project car stripped to the bone
1965 Land Rover Series 2a Station Wagon CIS recovery therapy!
1961 Volvo PV544 Bare metal rat rod-ish thing

I'm here to chat about cars and to help others - I'm not here "to always be right" like an internet warrior



Don't leave that there - I'll take it to bits!

[After reading the text]

Here's a question primarily intended for OM616 - but if anyone else knows please chime in!

In the document posted by OM616 he talks about the idle governor / idle spring and the bump stop and how this should be adjusted...

...this is particularly interesting for me 'cos even though I don't have a 240D my non turbo 300D has the fast idle knob set up as well.


I was wondering why these springs appear not to be set up correctly and that eventually the throttle linkage is used instead. I can see why this is a potential problem - as described by OM616 in his text - as the throttle linkage is fixed and does not adapt.

How come these springs become such a problem? Have they over time just worn out? Or is it a worn engine problem? => So in other words is it most likely a spring problem or a worn engine problem (and the spring was adjusted for a new engine)?

__________________
1992 W201 190E 1.8 171,000 km - Daily driver
1981 W123 300D ~ 100,000 miles / 160,000 km - project car stripped to the bone
1965 Land Rover Series 2a Station Wagon CIS recovery therapy!
1961 Volvo PV544 Bare metal rat rod-ish thing

I'm here to chat about cars and to help others - I'm not here "to always be right" like an internet warrior



Don't leave that there - I'll take it to bits!

It is a mass production, automatic and manual transmission compatibility issue. The NA cars came with either a manual or auto trans, and the Idle setting for the auto is different than the Manual, (the manual idle speed is more picky).

In order to get each manual trans engine to idle correctly, each car would have to be tuned as it came off the line, not very mass production friendly to say the least.

So they decided to set the idle governor week so it is dependent on the throttle, as, the throttle is outside the pump and is easily adjusted. But as you now know, the throttle dose not modulate, so they added a dash pot that moved the throttle a touch to help with cold idle and accessory usage, and if you have one with a manual trans and forget that it is turned up, the engine will race when you step on the clutch while the load is gone or the engine is warmed up.

When they went to the turbo motors, at least 99% were automatics, so the idle setting is more forgiving, they set it on the stronger side and let it go. More mass production friendly.

It is just a matter of doing the fine tuning the factory did not. Additionally, these pumps are slammed together by several people, (mass Production), and each person will tend to set things up favoring one one end of the tolerance or the other, that is why one car will really run good and another is a real dog.

Does that answer your question, or did I miss understand what you were asking.

oh I turned some screws and it still ran.....

It turned out nice, gave him one turn on torque control, a little on rack limiter, maxed out full speed, and the inside idle was stuck. So had to remove the screw with stuck nut on it, repaired and put back in, so no idea were it was so started it holding the throttle by hand and turned idle in until I had a nice idle. then of reset the outer idle. His is manual so set it for good shifting. Boost is maxing at 10 psi now, waste gate was holding it back at 9 psi, readjusted now. egt's get to 1250 in a 0-70 mph run. So really did not want to push any higher. He is a bit of a full throttle driver, does drive well though. Did also ream pc's out .010, and he had some rebuilt injectors we put in. Did repair the air cleaner mount (missing tab on intake manifold, as well as crack metal frame for eht ebase of the air cleaner) and put a proper one back on instead of the sewer pipe filter, so fresh air from outside now.

__________________
1977 240D turbo

That's great - thanks.

Here's a different twist on a similar subject - I'm still trying to get my head around this =>


Assuming the stiffness of the spring stays constant and that it does not weaken over time (I don't know how accurate that assumption is) do you think that a worn engine would have an effect on idle - or would you consider the effects of a worn engine (low compression - due to what ever) to be more pronounced in the higher rev range? Essentially - how dependant are the fine tuning of IP settings on engine condition?

__________________
1992 W201 190E 1.8 171,000 km - Daily driver
1981 W123 300D ~ 100,000 miles / 160,000 km - project car stripped to the bone
1965 Land Rover Series 2a Station Wagon CIS recovery therapy!
1961 Volvo PV544 Bare metal rat rod-ish thing

I'm here to chat about cars and to help others - I'm not here "to always be right" like an internet warrior



Don't leave that there - I'll take it to bits!