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  #1  
Old 08-22-2013, 05:49 PM
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Does anyone know if MB made a non-vacuum boosted master cylinder

Howdy,

I got the manual steering box already installed and I love it.

I can get a non MB manual brake master cylinder set-up which is hitting the correct pedal 6:1 ratio.

Does anyone know if MB actually made a non-vacuum boosted master cylinder? That is, manual brakes ???

Thanks in advance.
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  #2  
Old 08-22-2013, 06:05 PM
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For what model car? I'd think non assisted brakes are a bad idea...

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  #3  
Old 08-22-2013, 06:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by greazzer View Post
Howdy,

I got the manual steering box already installed and I love it.

I can get a non MB manual brake master cylinder set-up which is hitting the correct pedal 6:1 ratio.

Does anyone know if MB actually made a non-vacuum boosted master cylinder? That is, manual brakes ???

Thanks in advance.
Why do this? I don't see any economy gains from it, only safety losses.
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1982 300SD -- 211k, Texas car, tranny issues ____ 1979 240D 4-speed 234k -- turbo and tuned IP, third world taxi hot rod

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  #4  
Old 08-22-2013, 07:38 PM
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My bad ... W123.

The safety gains or losses are really not an issue. A correct 6:1 pedal ratio with a manual system is probably more responsive than the 1983 set up I got now or any one of us. Secondly, it does remove "some" parastic drain on the drivetrain. How much is a seperate can of worms. Third, it cleans up, simplifies, and makes the system a little more rebust.

So, did MB make a manual brake system for the W123 or something which would be clearly adaptable without a bunch of R&D.
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  #5  
Old 08-22-2013, 08:54 PM
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Originally Posted by greazzer View Post
My bad ... W123.

The safety gains or losses are really not an issue. A correct 6:1 pedal ratio with a manual system is probably more responsive than the 1983 set up I got now or any one of us. Secondly, it does remove "some" parastic drain on the drivetrain. How much is a seperate can of worms. Third, it cleans up, simplifies, and makes the system a little more rebust.

So, did MB make a manual brake system for the W123 or something which would be clearly adaptable without a bunch of R&D.
I highly doubt it. The only manual setups I've heard of were on base model Rangers and old Jeeps.

I will be keeping the manual brakes on my Jeep project, but probably going to a bigger MC.

I want manual brakes because it's predictable-you get the same pedal response with the engine on or off, and eliminated the VP and booster as failure points
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  #6  
Old 08-22-2013, 09:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Simpler=Better View Post
I highly doubt it. The only manual setups I've heard of were on base model Rangers and old Jeeps.

I will be keeping the manual brakes on my Jeep project, but probably going to a bigger MC.

I want manual brakes because it's predictable-you get the same pedal response with the engine on or off, and eliminated the VP and booster as failure points
Bingo !

However, I was hoping that MB had some cars with manual brakes. Almost all the golden classic era US autos had them. When US made cars which were the envy of the world. Those days are somewhat gone, but I am still hoping that someone can pop up with something. If anyone, I was counting on you Ryan ... thanks ... just ruined my evening a little ... LOL ... poop
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Old 08-22-2013, 10:07 PM
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Hm. After reading about manual brakes, I take back what I said and can understand why you'd like to convert -- sheesh, I want it now! Two things that may or may not help you:

1) It appears from a post on that lesser forum that the Ponton was the last 'Benz to come with manual brakes... I can't find anything on manual brakes in the W114/5, and Wikipedia says explicitly that the W123 came with power-assisted brakes.

2) Here is a very nice thread from some random forum (ThirdGen.ORG) about converting to manual brakes. I don't believe that the word Mercedes is ever even used, but there is a nice in-depth discussion of manual brakes and different manual brake kits.
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1982 300SD -- 211k, Texas car, tranny issues ____ 1979 240D 4-speed 234k -- turbo and tuned IP, third world taxi hot rod

2 Samuel 12:13: "David said to Nathan, “I have sinned against the Lord.” And Nathan said to David, “The Lord also has put away your sin; you shall not die."
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  #8  
Old 08-22-2013, 10:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Jooseppi Luna View Post
Hm. After reading about manual brakes, I take back what I said and can understand why you'd like to convert -- sheesh, I want it now! Two things that may or may not help you:

1) It appears from a post on that lesser forum that the Ponton was the last 'Benz to come with manual brakes... I can't find anything on manual brakes in the W114/5, and Wikipedia says explicitly that the W123 came with power-assisted brakes.

2) Here is a very nice thread from some random forum (ThirdGen.ORG) about converting to manual brakes. I don't believe that the word Mercedes is ever even used, but there is a nice in-depth discussion of manual brakes and different manual brake kits.
Hey, I jumped over there to take a peek and real no info. Good find, however, in that its a lead. Do you have any pics of one ?
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  #9  
Old 08-22-2013, 10:53 PM
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Originally Posted by greazzer View Post
Secondly, it does remove "some" parastic drain on the drivetrain. How much is a seperate can of worms.
WORM CAN OPEN



I find it doubtful that manual brakes would have any measurable effect on the mileage observed, but that's a knee-jerk reaction and could well be wrong. How much do you think it would affect the whole thing?
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1982 300SD -- 211k, Texas car, tranny issues ____ 1979 240D 4-speed 234k -- turbo and tuned IP, third world taxi hot rod

2 Samuel 12:13: "David said to Nathan, “I have sinned against the Lord.” And Nathan said to David, “The Lord also has put away your sin; you shall not die."
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  #10  
Old 08-23-2013, 08:13 AM
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IDK, I know there were a handful of activists on the forums besmirching the concept of going with the OEM Manual Steering Box and that having zero effect. Wrong. It was clearly noticable at the pedal and at the pump. As for exact numbers, not sure how I could measure that now since I already pulled the PS and had no numbers for the before and after compare and contrast deal. I do know that the vacuum pump runs 24x7 while that engine is running although I do not need vacuum 24x7. I am thinking if I get just 1 or 2 more HP gains and even if I see 10 miles more per full tank, plus all the other benefits, it's well worth the effort.

I am thinking I am stuck with an aftermarket but upgraded racing model.
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Old 08-23-2013, 09:13 AM
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Originally Posted by greazzer View Post
IDK, I know there were a handful of activists on the forums besmirching the concept of going with the OEM Manual Steering Box and that having zero effect. Wrong. It was clearly noticable at the pedal and at the pump. As for exact numbers, not sure how I could measure that now since I already pulled the PS and had no numbers for the before and after compare and contrast deal. I do know that the vacuum pump runs 24x7 while that engine is running although I do not need vacuum 24x7. I am thinking if I get just 1 or 2 more HP gains and even if I see 10 miles more per full tank, plus all the other benefits, it's well worth the effort.

I am thinking I am stuck with an aftermarket but upgraded racing model.
I would get rid of the VP just to reduce wear on the IP's collar thingy(Stretch/Army has a thread on it). Not to mention the whole exploding bearings issue.

You need to know the merc piston travel, the bolt spacing, and the brake line size. Fitting the new MC will probably be the hardest part, but with a grinder you can "adjust" pushrods on the fly
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  #12  
Old 08-23-2013, 09:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by greazzer View Post
IDK, I know there were a handful of activists on the forums besmirching the concept of going with the OEM Manual Steering Box and that having zero effect. Wrong. It was clearly noticable at the pedal and at the pump. As for exact numbers, not sure how I could measure that now since I already pulled the PS and had no numbers for the before and after compare and contrast deal. I do know that the vacuum pump runs 24x7 while that engine is running although I do not need vacuum 24x7. I am thinking if I get just 1 or 2 more HP gains and even if I see 10 miles more per full tank, plus all the other benefits, it's well worth the effort.

I am thinking I am stuck with an aftermarket but upgraded racing model.

Im going to x2 the manual steering box power increase. Been a pretty good and noticable difference on my 240, little peppier. By far the biggest improvement though is the steering is tight, tighter than any power box ive ever driven.


What has more parasitic drag, the vacuum pump or the belt driven power steering pump?

The reason I ask is that maybe you could cap off the vacuum pump, reinstall the power steering pump and use it to run a hydroboost brake setup, and you could install an electric clutch on the power steering pulley to reduce parasitic drag.

I know this is completely at odds with your goal of simplicity, but it might be a way to get the best of both worlds.

here is an interesting thread where a guy did this on his 97 ford ranger (also this website has some really interesting ideas, though the MPG claims on a lot of threads are a bit unbelievable)

Electric Clutch Power Steering - Fuel Economy, Hypermiling, EcoModding News and Forum - EcoModder.com
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  #13  
Old 08-23-2013, 09:55 AM
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I am positive that the PS pump has more parasitic drag on the engine. The vacuum pump is driven by the chain which runs the vacuum pump off a cam like fitting. I don't think it takes as much mojo to spin that cam which hits the back of the vacuum pump. I already sourced the premo solution to having vacuum, e.g., I got a very nice foam padded encased electric pump which goes in the spare wheel well. It looks new to me. I am thinking I can tee into the vacuum resevoir from the trunk area and that way, I can tuck all vacuum lines under the dash vs. the engine bay except the sole one which runs to the IP. I have been screwing around with the manual brakes concept for a while. The vacuum pump (electric) is Mercedes. Actually, all upgrades and modifications are generally mercedes' items except the electric water pump and altenator. I like keeping the parts and components all Mercedes unless I have zero options. I looked at numerous "exoctic" - really hi-end performance cars and actually many have manual steering and manual brakes. I love my manual steering. It is much more responsive and unless one is at a complete dead stop, the turning is almost just like PS until you hit 20 mph, and then it is significantly better IMO.
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  #14  
Old 08-23-2013, 10:31 AM
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Originally Posted by Simpler=Better View Post
I highly doubt it. The only manual setups I've heard of were on base model Rangers and old Jeeps.

I will be keeping the manual brakes on my Jeep project, but probably going to a bigger MC.

I want manual brakes because it's predictable-you get the same pedal response with the engine on or off, and eliminated the VP and booster as failure points
The Mercedes Ponton models did not have brake boosters, except on the 220S version. My early 180D just has a master cylinder, ditto with my 170

Is that what you mean?
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  #15  
Old 08-23-2013, 10:36 AM
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The Mercedes Ponton models did not have brake boosters, except on the 220S version. My early 180D just has a master cylinder, ditto with my 170

Is that what you mean?
Bingo !

Do you have any pictures ? If so, they would be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance
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