Any W124 (E420) Horror Stories? - Page 3 - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

suginami · #31 11-27-2002, 02:53 PM

rmasteller,

I guess you're right. Looking at the prices of cars with similar mileage, especially the Starmark cars offered by MB dealers, the high teens is obviously the price range of asking prices.

I'd expect, though, that Starmark cars on a Mercedes dealer lot ought to be, I repeat, ought to be nearly mint with no visible flaws at all, unless you are an obsessive compulsive maniac like myself and go over the car with a fine tooth comb and a magnifying glass.

I still think the car you are looking at is waaaaaay below the minimum standard for a Starmark car that is at the high end of retail, higher even than Kelly Blue Book.

I really wouldn't presuade anyone to not buy a Starmark used car at a dealer. You are paying more than you would otherwise, but you get the confidence of a car that has been looked over, reconditioned, and passed a million inspections by the dealer technicians, plus the peace of mind of probably the best used car warranty.

However, the best values are always found via private party sales. People who are selling their cars private party are not trying to make a profit (like a dealer), but are just trying to unload a car. I'm 100% convinced that if you look hard enough, you could buy a mint E420 for $14k or less, maybe considerably less, spend $2k on an aftermarket warranty, and still have $4k left over to spend in maintenance and upgrades like AMG wheels and tires.

Either way, expect perfection (or near perfection) when buying a Starmark car at full high retail value from a dealer, and the car in question surely is not.

I also think the DOHC 32 valve M119 engine is better than the current 4.3 liter and 5.0 liter M113 engines which have only a single OHC and 24 valves per cylinder. Reading the technical info in my old Star Magazines clearly reveals that the prevailing factor in going with the twin spark plug, SOHC, 3 valves per cylinder engine design was to reduce smog emissions at start-up with only one exhaust valve per cylinder.

Lebenz · #32 11-30-2002, 11:09 AM

Paul,

I disagree that the best values are always or even usually private party based. Buying from a reseller offers many plusses that you don’t otherwise get.

First, as you pointed out, warranty, particularly a Starmark warranty is a huge plus.

Second, dealerships have the man power and expertise (not that they necessarily use it) to quickly fix minor and major problems, where private sellers are reluctant to pay someone to do so.

Third, a general “truth” is that open market warranties are not as good as dealer provided warranties. If we are talking Starmark vs. anything else, Starmark wins by several laps. If we are talking brand x 3rd party warranty vs. brand y 3rd party warranty, my own research indicated that a dealer offered warranty, even non MB dealer provided warranties are usually more comprehensive and easier to deal with than almost all street purchase warranties. Ask a SA at a dealership who are the best warranty companies. It is an eye opener. When I bring in a car for what I hope will be warranty work, I want the warranty company and the dealership to like working with each other!

Forth, modern liability laws will tend to force a dealer (if force is needed, okay, probably only if force is needed) to fix a major hidden problem, if the PPI reveals it, where a private party will probably not because he will claim he didn’t know about it.

Fifth, efficiency and convenience offered by dealers is a huge plus. For loans (which almost everyone uses) it is far easier and quicker to get a loan from a dealership than to track one down yourself. Peoples First Finance is a notable exception. But even here, if you buy from a dealer you will get a far lower interest rate and more term options than if you buy from a private party. Further, a dealer can put the keys in your hand, including financing, minor add ons, and related fixes in less time than a private party can. If nothing else, folks are far more likely to accept it when the dealer says that they’ll have the title to you shortly than anyone will from a private party.

Sixth, is the perception of comfort. Sitting in some guys living room, with his wife, kids, and dogs moving about while you are trying to make a decision is far more distracting than doing the same thing in a dealership. I realize there are some dealerships that make you sweat, but that is not the norm for a MB purchase (at least not around here).

Seventh, is the bottom line of cost vs. opportunity cost. While you may be a few dollars or even a few hundred dollars less buying from a private party, this is generally not always or even frequently true, and secondly, due to the reasons above and others buying from a private party is often false economy. Usually, one buys a higher mileage more generally used vehicle for a little less than the same thing would go for at a dealer. This is often because the seller can’t get as much as they want form a dealer so they turn to the open market.

The other dirty truth in car sales is that usually the person that takes the biggest hit on a used car is the seller. The seller sells or trades a car for less to a dealer because the dealer is obligated to be competitive on sales value with other advertised vehicles and base their prices on the NADA or KBB or even Edmunds.com. This, and the desire to make some money, through volume force the dealer to put a cap on the sale price, plus make it negotiable, plus add an optional warranty, plus throw in floor mats and/or a keychain and/or some other niceties to bring the customers in and have them leave with a shiny used car. Someone has to take the hit and it usually the seller. These same sellers are the ones who are most likely out to sell you’re their car rather than trade it.

So, private party sales are, IMO not necessarily or even generally the best value. Add it all up and time and again you get a far better value from a dealer than saving a little by buying private, only to have your savings disappear in a number of upgrades and after the fact fixes.

Of course, when buying from your car fanatic uncle Warner, these truths don’t apply, but otherwise they usually do.

Just a few thoughts.....

Cheerz from foggy Seattle

suginami · #33 11-30-2002, 03:00 PM

I basically agree with all of your points.

That is why it is almost always best for the average person to buy from a dealer.

But if you look hard enough and are knowledgeable enough about cars and mechanics, you can find a great car via private party for a heck of a lot less.

It is not for everyone, but it has always worked for me.

Lebenz · #34 12-02-2002, 03:26 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by suginami
I basically agree with all of your points.

That is why it is almost always best for the average person to buy from a dealer.

But if you look hard enough and are knowledgeable enough about cars and mechanics, you can find a great car via private party for a heck of a lot less.

It is not for everyone, but it has always worked for me.

Dang it, Paul! You took all the fun away.

If you want to go that approach, auctions are considered a best approach. Although squeezing a seller has a certain charm, too.
I've never bought a car from a private party, except the uncle Warner type. But have sold many through private sale. For some reason, the buyers always seen to feel that a discount is required. One guy even said to me: "Come on, you don't expect that I would pay what you are asking for a private sale?"

He ended up doing just that.....It was still a STEAL, but I was okay to see the car go (my belovid for 10 years 280Z 2+2, that hardly was used after I bought my 928)

suginami · #35 12-02-2002, 05:18 PM

I would never buy from an auction because it's too much of a crap shoot. You're allowed to start the car and listen to it run, but can't drive it.

On all of my used car purchases, I followed the same principles. I only buy cars that are well-maintained inside and out. I must have a complete service history with all the receipts or records to back it up, and they must let me take the records home with the car once I buy it. I never take the sellers word for it. I ask them a few question to get a feel for their honesty and also look at their other cars to see how they are kept up. If the seller and I are close enough in price to make a deal, then I take it to a mechanic for a PPI for a once over / compression test, etc.

Gary Ganaway · #36 12-02-2002, 05:44 PM

Suginami: I tend to agree with your approach. I have been in sales and sales mgt for over 25 years and tend to "read" people and surroundings. You can get a pretty good idea of how they take care of things by just observing and talking to them to get a "feel" . Bottom line on buying cars is having the service records to avoid the emotional impulse but this does take will power when you see a nice shiny example.

rmasteller · #37 12-02-2002, 10:15 PM

Well, speaking of buying cars, I walked away from the "deal"

a while ago when they would not budge on the price even after hearing my list of faults. Wouldn't you know, the salesman at the dealership called me back today. He suggested opting for the purchase of the drivetrain Starmark instead of the full Starmark to save money. I said no. He said they did some touch up on the car to fix the paint scratches and the rust spot on the trunk. Also, their trade in value on my Dodge Neon was given sight unseen, so they are going to evaluate it in person. I'm going to go in on Wednesday and see if we can make a real deal.

By the way: One of the things wrong with the car is a dead light bulb in the climate control. The temp wheel and the first two push buttons next to it are not lit, but the rest are. How difficult would this be for me to fix?

Thanks,

DanielG · #38 12-03-2002, 10:43 AM

I'm lost. Can anyone explain what a Starmark warranty is if it doesn't cover the things that are broken (i.e. why are you buying a car with a warranty and then asking what its going to cost to fix something) -- is it only things that break from now on? Are you going to bring the car in for warranty work and have them tell you, "nope that was broken before you bought it --- or prove that it broke after you got the warranty"? The only used car warranty I have ever had was on a Lexus -- and it covered the car as if the car where bought new (anything that went wrong in the 3 years or 100,000 miles was covered, any problems that existed at purchase where repaired).

rmasteller · #39 12-03-2002, 11:21 AM

Light blubs are a "wear item", like brake pads, tires, shocks, and other things that normally wear out.

DanielG · #40 12-03-2002, 11:28 AM

Even when they are in a difficult to access location? What about all of the other problems in the car that you listed -- is the Starmark warranty system a "certified" car system? If so, how can they certify a car that has problems and not fix the problems?

I guess that is where I am lost. I thought that they advertised that Starmark cars are like buying a new cars (warranty-wise)?

Good luck! It sounds like a nice car (with a few workable problems)

rmasteller · #41 12-03-2002, 02:25 PM

The Starmark warranty does cover ALMOST everything that the new car warranty covers. I don't understand how you can expect a used car warrant that protects you from "broken" components to pay for worn out maintenance items. Brake pads will always wear out. If one actually broke, then I guess they should replace that, but stuff wears out normally throught use. Should they replace your tires after 2 years because 1/2 the tread is gone? Should they pay for a new wiper blade when it get's streaky? I don't think that is reasonable. And regarding the dash light bulb, I beleive MB chose to include bulbs in the classification of "wear items" along with other things. Does that make more sense to you?

DanielG · #42 12-03-2002, 02:37 PM

Hey I don't expect them to cover eveything, I was asking what they do cover in light of the list of items you include as problems with the car -- including badly placed panels, no protective coatings, rust spots, broken hinges, leather parts peeling off, etc. I would have thought that the Starmark system would require that these cars be in very good to excellent condition -- lights out on a major component and badly repaired body panels, does not fit with that. Aren't there standards for Starmark vehicles? If this is what they provide you while you are writing your check what do they do after they have your money.

I write to get information, if you don't want to provide it fine, but please don't get angry and please don't give me attitude.

thanks

DanielG · #43 12-03-2002, 02:55 PM

http://www.mbusa.com/brand/starmark/about/mechanical.html

Here is a link to the test and repairs Starmark cars go through. Interior lighting repaired or replaced is included as well as dash instruments. Also, they check windshield wipers, etc. These are things that have to be right when they sell the car. I know they don't fix them under warranty afterwards, but if you are buying a Starmark car all of these things need to be right when you buy it.

rmasteller · #44 12-03-2002, 10:43 PM

Dan,
I misunderstood what you were referring to, so I apologize for the undeserving attitude. I agree that several of my issues should have been found during the Starmark inspection and corrected. The fact that they were not, and that the salesman would not have them fixed, really set me off. That's why I walked away from the deal. They would not budge on the price and woud not fix any of my issues. We'll see what the car is like tomorrow (anything fixed?) and if they are ready to deal on the price.

I saw the Starmark check list on-line some time ago and forgot about it since. I will print it and take it in tomorrow and ask to see the one they completed when they certified the car. Some things would be open to interpretation on this check list. Examples: "Inspect dash, door panels, seat covers, wood, etc." and "Wind noise". So, to what extent will they let bad things pass as "OK"? I guess items like these are subjective and open to debate between seller and buyer. Almost all other items on the list are objective and should not be allowed to slide. Either the instrument panel lights work or not, and if not then they should be fixed. This list will be a great bargining tool for getting the car properly ready for purchase. I'm beginning to think they may not have gone through the checklist before, but maybe they have now. We'll see.

Thanks, and my apologies.

DanielG · #45 12-04-2002, 09:38 AM

Thank you -- I appreciate your anger at the MB dealer and your apology -- and good luck (again)