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  #31  
Old 09-12-2018, 01:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 400Eric View Post
My main concern is getting every trace of the old oil out, which, as I understand it, is downright toxic to the new R134a and the oil we are supposed to use with it.
I think you are mis-guided. You don't need to get all the old oil out. It is impossible anyway. I never flush the system. You can mix mineral oil ( in R12 system ) with ester oil or pag oil. I always do the minimum and it always come out good and cold. I have done 6 conversions. The only one which is marginal is the car with the R4 compressor. The oil is only lubricant for the compressor. It does not care whether it is old or new oil in my opinion. It is not toxic to the R134a. I think the R134a is more toxic chemically.
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Not MBZ nor A/C trained professional but a die-hard DIY and green engineer. Use the info at your own peril. Picked up 2 Infractions because of disagreements. NOW reversed.

W124 Keyless remote, PM for details. http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/mercedes-used-parts-sale-wanted/334620-fs-w124-chasis-keyless-remote-%2450-shipped.html

2 x 87 300SDL
1 x 87 300D
1 x 87 300TDT wagon
1 x 83 300D
1 x 84 190D ( 5 sp ) - All R134 converted + keyless entry.
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  #32  
Old 09-12-2018, 09:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 400Eric View Post
My main concern is getting every trace of the old oil out, which, as I understand it, is downright toxic to the new R134a and the oil we are supposed to use with it.
Not a problem having some mineral oil ( used with 12 ) in a PAG system.

Mineral oil dissolves in 12 allowing it to circulate through the system. Mineral oil does not dissolve in 134 so it pools in various areas, this causes a loss of compressor lubrication. Most modern AC compressors do not have a sump and act as a 2 stroke engine so oil movement is vital.
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  #33  
Old 09-12-2018, 01:08 PM
Knappy Drag Racer
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 1,725
OK, I see.

I'll read up on this swap some more and see if I want to tackle it.

Thanks guys!

Regards,
Eric
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89 300E "Benzer1" 15.924 Uncorrected
93 400E "Benzer3" 14.200 U.C.
95 E420 "Benzer4"
92 300E "Benzer5" 16.299 U.C. Future turbo CNG
87 300D "Benzer7"
87 300D "Benzer8"
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  #34  
Old 09-12-2018, 01:21 PM
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Eric400, I sent you a reply PM, but your inbox is full.

+++

My response about the R12 service tech I recommended:

He won't do the work if there is a leak - he knows his stuff. Retired Toyota tech.
He will change your Schrader valves, which are the most common leak point. He can also put a special oil in the system to unstick a stuck expansion valve.

My system in my W124 hadnt worked in 10 years, and he changed the Schrader valves, vacuumed it out, and charged it. Very reasonable and wants you to understand exactly what he is doing before you pay for something.

Well worth it - I use AC year round to dehumidify the interior. I find it as important in winter.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 400Eric View Post
OK, I see.

I'll read up on this swap some more and see if I want to tackle it.

Thanks guys!

Regards,
Eric
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1983 300D 904/palomino
2.88 rear end, 4 speed swap, W115 long runner intake manifold, W116 non-EGR exhaust manifold, rebuilt KKK K26, 3 piece Euro bumpers, Lo-spec Euro headlights, AL129X, 6.5" wide steel wheels + hubcaps, 15% tint, Alpine head unit + JL 3.5s & 5.25s, custom A/C, Coco Mats

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  #35  
Old 09-12-2018, 01:53 PM
Knappy Drag Racer
 
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Thanks for the post.

So many options.

I'm hoping to get gsxr to weigh in, as he has a great deal of knowledge on this topic. (As well as many other topics.)

I know we should start a new thread, but then again it's not like Rob is still looking for a car for his daughter.
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89 300E "Benzer1" 15.924 Uncorrected
93 400E "Benzer3" 14.200 U.C.
95 E420 "Benzer4"
92 300E "Benzer5" 16.299 U.C. Future turbo CNG
87 300D "Benzer7"
87 300D "Benzer8"
87 300D "Benzer9"
87 300D/70 AMC Javelin "Sidewinder-Benzer"
87 300TD "Benzer11"
06 E320 CDI "Benzer12"
05 E320 CDI "Benzer12A"
71 AMC Javelin AMX 401 "Sidewinder"
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  #36  
Old 09-20-2018, 04:16 PM
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Rob, you've already got the car so it's kinda irrelevant, but I'd have recommended buying something safe. What car do you want your daughter to be in, when she's T-boned or rear-ended by some dimwit who insists on texting behind the wheel? Camry or Century would not get my vote. I'd also insist on some basic safety features like ABS and SRS (airbags), and preferably ASR (traction control) as well. This rules out the 107 and 123 chassis. I'd have recommended a late 124 with ASR, but your selection of the 201 is a decent compromise. Shoot, 210's have come down in value so much, even those would be a possibility in the $4k ballpark. Go with a 210 that has ESP if possible.


Eric, I haven't messed with AC in years, but from memory yes - you do want to remove as much mineral oil as possible. And, the FSM procedure states this as well (link). Leaving all the mineral oil in there, and adding PAG/POE, is not a good idea. Sure, you CAN leave it in, but MB didn't say it was "important to remove as much as possible" just so they could have their technicians waste time on it. Poke around on Google for more details, but keep in mind that different cars have different AC systems/compressors, so just because Toyota has a TSB that says mineral oil removal is not required, this does not mean it applies to Mercedes. YMMV, yadda x3. Then of course you have the issue where the older R12 components will not cool as well as the later R134a components (condenser / TXV are different, possibly compressor too). I've never encountered a converted car that cooled as well as it did with R-12. Factory 124.034/.036 R134a systems are very good, and my W210's have excellent AC as well.

So anyway - Eric, if you haven't converted the 92 300E yet, don't do it. Use one of the "alternative" refrigerants that are compatible with the existing mineral oil, after fixing whatever leak caused the R12 loss. If you're really on a budget, you can even use propane. Google for that as well, and before everyone freaks out about using "combustible" refrigerant, go read up on the combustion properties of R134a. I've never used it personally but it's mineral-oil compatible and should cool nearly as well as R12.

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  #37  
Old 09-20-2018, 06:35 PM
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Rob,

Despite the criteria given, I highly recommend the W210 chassis for a car like this. It's newer, safer, has GREAT AC, and is simple, easy, and cheap to maintain. Buy the absolute best example you can find and go through it as necessary with all the requisite maintenance items, such as fluids, and the daughter will be good to go in a safe ride.

The W210 is a true "gas and go" car in that it is very robust and cheap to operate. These cars routinely go 200k and more without major repairs - I encourage you to take a look in some of the online forums for the W210 chassis and you'll see what I'm talking about.

Good luck!

Dan
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  #38  
Old 09-20-2018, 07:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gsxr View Post
Leaving all the mineral oil in there, and adding PAG/POE, is not a good idea.
Having excess oil in the system will reduce efficiency as the oil acts as an insulator, it isn't an oil type mix issue. One way to pull oil from a system is to nitrogen charge then do a quick blow down and repeat this 3 times.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gsxr View Post
. . but I'd have recommended buying something safe. What car do you want your daughter to be in, when she's T-boned or rear-ended by some dimwit who insists on texting behind the wheel? Camry or Century would not get my vote.
Think again about the ( 02 - 05 ) Camry, it is 2 steps above the W201 and one step above any other MB in the data at bottom.


https://www-nrd.nhtsa.dot.gov/database/VSR/veh/VehicleCatalogTN.aspx

A full list of cars tested since the 70's , I have not decoded the ratings



https://www.monash.edu/__data/assets/pdf_file/0011/1045298/muarc266.pdf

Some data page 35 45 115 137

I've pulled out USA relevant models and placed MB at the top of each rating group . Looking at the charts, very tiny cars designed in the 80's fare poorly and an older MB does not do as good as some would think.

Page 187 consumer friendly crash worthiness ratings using actual on the road crash data from 87 - 05



S = Small car
LC = Light car
M = Medium car
L = Large car



2 steps better than average


S 99 - 04 VW Golf / Bora

M 98 - 05 VW Passat

M 94 - 02 SAAB new 900 / 9 - 3

L 02 - 05 Toyota Camry

L 84 - 92 Volvo 700 / 900





1 step better than average


M 95 - 00 W202 C class

M 86 - 94 W124 E class

S 98 - 01 Toyota Corolla

M 91 - 02 Honda Accord

L 98 - 02 Toyota Camry

L 00 - 05 Toyota Avalon




Average

M 89 - 93 W201 190

M 96 - 02 W210 E class

L 82 - 92 W126 S class

S 00 - 05 Hyundai Elantra

S 92 - 05 Honda Civic

S 01 - 05 Subaru Impreza

S 02 - 05 Toyota Corolla

LC 00 - 05 Hyundai Accent

LC 00 - 05 Kia Rio

LC 99 - 05 Toyota Echo

L 96 - 98 Ford Taurus



1 step below average

L 83 - 86 Toyota Camry

S 93 - 00 Subaru Impreza
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  #39  
Old 09-21-2018, 10:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LWB250 View Post
Rob, Despite the criteria given, I highly recommend the W210 chassis for a car like this. It's newer, safer, has GREAT AC, and is simple, easy, and cheap to maintain. Buy the absolute best example you can find and go through it as necessary with all the requisite maintenance items, such as fluids, and the daughter will be good to go in a safe ride.
I agree with Dan. Although I own several 210's, I still prefer the 124 chassis, despite some of the nicer features in the 210. I'd recommend any 6-cyl 210 for a new/young driver.


Quote:
Originally Posted by 97 SL320 View Post
Think again about the ( 02 - 05 ) Camry, it is 2 steps above the W201 and one step above any other MB in the data at bottom.
The crash tests focus on very specific scenarios, which are not always what happens in the real world. That's great about the few years of Camry high ratings, but I'll still take my chances in a 124 (or 210, or 211). I have personally been in two severe wrecks: a freeway-speed rollover in a 201, and a high-speed rear-end hit in a 124. Other members of my family have been in severe wrecks in the 123 and 124. We all walked away. I would not have wanted to be in any year Camry for any of those incidents, but if you would prefer that, please drive the Camry. (Side note - I see your 97 C280 is ranked the same as my dinosaur W124!)
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  #40  
Old 09-21-2018, 06:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gsxr View Post
The crash tests focus on very specific scenarios, which are not always what happens in the real world.
Actually, the list I posted was data gathered from real road crashes in Australia and NOT tests. Got to page 187 of the second link for a chart listing many cars and ratings.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gsxr View Post
(Side note - I see your 97 C280 is ranked the same as my dinosaur W124!)
The W202 C280 is actually a smaller car than the 124 so the 124 has an outright advantage, the stats put them together to eliminate an never ending list.
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  #41  
Old 09-23-2018, 04:54 AM
Knappy Drag Racer
 
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Thanks for all the info guys.

I think I'll just try to score some more old cans of R12 off of Craig's list.

It's crazy how the old W124s rate "above average" yet the newer W210s only rate "average". How can that be?!? The W210 should have benefitted from 20 years of safety advancements!

Dave, when I get some time, I'll start a thread about my two CDIs. I'm sure you're pretty tripped out about me moving to those right? Well TBH, I'm pretty tripped out about it too!
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89 300E "Benzer1" 15.924 Uncorrected
93 400E "Benzer3" 14.200 U.C.
95 E420 "Benzer4"
92 300E "Benzer5" 16.299 U.C. Future turbo CNG
87 300D "Benzer7"
87 300D "Benzer8"
87 300D "Benzer9"
87 300D/70 AMC Javelin "Sidewinder-Benzer"
87 300TD "Benzer11"
06 E320 CDI "Benzer12"
05 E320 CDI "Benzer12A"
71 AMC Javelin AMX 401 "Sidewinder"
74 AMC Hornet 401 "C.K.10" 13.63 U.C.
74 Bricklin SV1 "Presto" AMC 360 pwrd.
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  #42  
Old 03-16-2019, 11:00 AM
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Here is a vid using actual humans in crash testing. There is a MB towards the end.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GWy0hHHECdM

Unusual Crash Test Footage

Channel adamstarpictures

Vid notes

Published on Feb 2, 2016

A clip from the Television series "Ripley's Believe It Or Not" with host Jack Palance that aired in the mid-1980's. The story was about automobile safety and the importance of wearing your seat belt. The first half featured the familiar footage of crash test dummies in the ultra slow-motion from American car crash tests done in the late 1970's and early 1980's. This amazing clip shows the end of the segment where German crash tests used live human volunteers.

As far as I can tell this is most likely from the episode that aired on October 6, 1985.
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