Of course not, but it could be time for a new thread Less than a year ago I picked up a 92 300TE 4-Matic with the Mosselman twin turbo kit installed. Detonation had trashed the pistons and the head. So the challenge that lies before me isn't "how can I turbocharge it?" but how do I build a shortblock that will allow me to turbocharge the F*** out of it?
Since there is a lot of similarity between the M103, M104, M60x engines, Ive come up with a few tricks.
1) piston oiling: The M603 piston oilers installed on the M103 block will provide oil dedicated to cooling the underside of the piston crown. With increased temperature stability in the piston, detonation is less likely. (note:M104 oilers will fit but spray a lot closer to the side than the M603 part does)
2) oil pump gear: Again from the diesel bin, the M603 oil pump gear is a turbo motor must-have. It's smaller size results in more oil pump rpm's. This mod helps ensure that there is enough oil for 2 turbos, 6 piston oilers, AND your engine bearings.
3) flywheel: There is room for improvement here too. The center section of the flywheel is only a single sheet of metal. (it has an M102 part #) The turbodiesel engines actually double up on the sheets of metal in the center section of the flywheel and omit the spacer between the flywheel and crankshaft. When adding a lot of power to a M103 it makes sense to use the same flywheel setup as the high torque turbodiesels.

Hopefully these mods will give my turbo gasser the legendary reliability of MB's turbodiesels. Aside from the aforementioned mods I've still got to make a decision on stroke, rods, and pistons.
The decision on stroke is really asking which crankshaft to use. I'm leaning towards the stock crank simply b/c it deosn't involve the outlay of any more cash. A 50$ M104 2.8L crank on ebay has had me drooling over the idea of a de-stroked high RPM screamer. Of course a 3.6L stroked M103 can be done with a diesel crank (350SDL, not the 300 SDL). I'm sure that it would have plenty of torque Unfortuantely that is a rare crank to get your hands on.
As for rods I think that the factory rods are some of the toughest rods around but I still don't trust them in my high dollar shortblock. A local custom shop recently quoted me $3500 USD for a set of 6 titanium rods. That is a LOT for a set of rods but would take all the worry out of ever breaking one. Not to mention the weight savings in the reciprocating mass
Pistons present a lot of choices. Fancy cast alloys or forgings? The high RPM screamer would likely get the lighter alloys. With an engine that is apart b/c of detonation the forgings seem the better route. On the downside though, the forged slugs require more running clearance increasing the likelyhood of a rebuild on an engine I never want to see inside of again.

So what do you guys think? How would you build your twin turbo dream mercedes?

......Id stick with the standard M103 internals.

weak points are the pistons. Replace with forged items.
rods. start getting ****ty at 400hp. Either linish/shot peen/arp caps or go with forged ARGO customs (H beam)
Valve springs need to be changed. Custom or find something that fits.

Oiling system is adequate. Its the tuning that is ****. CIS-E is just crap if you really want to turbo the **** outta your 6. custom fuel rail, injectors, seats, bosses, regulator, pump, lines and a MOTEC.

The bottom end is not typical of engine build designs and is not suitable to being set up with 'V8' thinking in mind, i.e. dont set it up with more crankshaft end float, dont cam it, dont underdrive anything. Go for black metal bearings with extra tight clearences.

Id say with two gt28RS turbos shes good for just a tad under 400rwkws with US compression, minimal lag, and daily driver cruising.

I think your engine only died for two reasons. Someone turned up the boost and the CIS-E went lean, or the mosselman piggyback thing ****ed up and went lean.

The motec is a $3500 unit in Aus (with all options) but is worth every penny with the amount of warnings it can give you.

I see the thai boys are fitting 2jz-gtes in with relative ease, Cost wise, this might be your better option, but id stick with the m103.

titanium rods arent neccessary. a good set of forged I beams will do perfectly, more than youll ever pump outta the m103.

Stroke it to 3.6, and then you can fit a pair of HKS GT30's! and go for some serious rwkw!!!! how does 700hp atw??

Like you said you wanted to turbo the **** outta it.

Wow, that sounds fun!

But what would the total bill be?

__________________
2006 BMW M5 "Heidi" @ 109,000 miles
2005 MBZ C55 AMG "Lorelai" @ 165,000 miles
1991 MBZ 300E "Benzachino II" @ 165,000 miles
1990 MBZ 500SL "Shoshanna" @ 118,000 miles

(On the hunt for a good used M103 engine as of 6/10/23, PM me if you have one to sell!)

$20k



Just in case you thought of bringing it to me ...




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__________________
[http://languageandgrammar.com/2008/01/14/youve-got-problems-not-issues/ ]

"A liberal is someone who feels they owe a great debt to their fellow man, which debt he proposes to pay off with your money."

the price of perfomance.


he said he wanted to TURBO THE **** OUTTA IT.

ask 300evil how his EFI M103 is going...think you'll find he has done it for a lot less than 20k.

Heard today from a co-worker who had built a twin turbo C-36. Guy that bought it blew it up. Apparantly he was tweaking the boost past the 12 PSI it was tuned to run at. Said it bent two rods! At 12 PSI it was dyno'ed at 440hp, probably was over 500hp when it blew. Really has me thinking hard about those titanium rods. That's one expensive insurance policy

If you want to turbo an M103, you need EFI, dished pistons to reduce the compression ratio, and a knock sensor to automatically retard the timing. Intercooling would be good too.

BTW, I used to own a Volvo 740T and it ran 12 psi of boost.

Detonation kills the internals, i.e. the rods.

__________________
Regards

Warren

Currently 1965 220Sb, 2002 FORD Crown Vic Police Interceptor

Had 1965 220SEb, 1967 230S, 280SE 4.5, 300SE (W126), 420SEL

ENTER > = (HP RPN)

Not part of the in-crowd since 1952.

You don't need titanium rods, you just have to prevent detonation from occuring. You can get a Megasquirt ecu for your car for less than you could buy a motec system and everything else you have to get.Just ask Silvercosworth at www.190revolution.net

Ya know, I am planning to use the megasquirt but before I worry about fuel and induction I've got to get the shortblock built. The basic megasquirt can be programmed for up to 20 psi boost. That's the upper limit of what I want to run on my engine. Preventing detonation is one thing but preventing all circumstances that can lead to detonation is a lot larger challenge. I want to have a bottom end that can not only stand up to 20 psi but will also stand up to 20 psi when the fuel quality drops or the I/C gets blocked by trash or a fuel pump takes a crap ect. I'm gonna have a lot of cash in this engine regardless, I want to make sure that if anything blows I want it to be the head coming off the block, not the reciprocating assembly coming through the oil pan.

...'s not
http://www.jandssafeguard.com/


The unit pricing is a steal ! Talk about affordable.


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__________________
[http://languageandgrammar.com/2008/01/14/youve-got-problems-not-issues/ ]

"A liberal is someone who feels they owe a great debt to their fellow man, which debt he proposes to pay off with your money."

That's a pretty interesting gizmo but I'm planning to use the megaspark for ignition and it can be programmed to do pretty much the same things. The only problem that I see is that with all knock sensor setups they don't do anything until after the engine has already started knocking. Making 100hp per cylinder, I'm not sure I want to wait until it knocks before cutting the timing. I know I'm a bit of a knock snob but it's b/c up until a few months ago my daily driver was a 97 900SE that I had tweaked to run at 21 psi of boost. The saab actually "listened" to the burn through the spark plug and determined how each cylinder burned and where peak cylinder pressure occured. They called it insipient knock detection. The point is I'm not gonna be able to get that fancy and if I'm gonna have a ton of cash in my engine I want to build it so that it will hold together even if the unforseeable occurs, well at least within reasonable limits. If that means laying out a butload of money for some really trick rods then that is the planned course of action. Aside from the increase of stregnth in the rods the weight savings is a major factor to consider. This engine is going into a 4-matic wagon. In their natural form they feel like they are driving through 6 inches of wet sand compared to the 2WD sedan. Decreasing the mass of the reciprocating assembly will make the engine want to rev more freely and will really help get it off the line and making boost a lot sooner. I found a page where titanium rods were being sold for BMW's. They broke the math down like this. At 6k rpm with stock rods the engine is moving over 20k kg of mass in a minute in rods alone. With titanium rods at 6k rpm it's moving 13k kg of mass in the rods. Thats a difference of 7k kg of mass moved per minute. I don't know about you guys but that impressed me. (and made me want those really expensive rods even more)

Hi Duxthe1,
Do you happen to know off hand the part number for the M603 flywheel? This mod is definately one I have to do. I was always concerned about the strength of the flywheel. I already have to readjust the timing events on the flywheel for my EFI computer so starting off with a fresh ring gear to weld on new teeth is the way to go. Also, How much did the piston oilers cost you? I was contemplating this idea but was unsure about the cast differences between the M103 and M104 block? Do you happen to know if the oil cooler from the 3.0L M104 fitted in the CIS 300CE-24V will fit our M103 blocks? I think it will but I'm unsure. Please keep in touch so we can swap some tips. My email address is hightechstuff2@yahoo.com
Thanks!
Adam

__________________
Current Stable:
01 ML55 AMG
92 500E (a few mods)
87 300E (lots of mods)
00 Chevy 3500HD Diesel Box Truck
68 18' Donzi Marine
06 GT i-Drive7 1.0 Mountain Bike (with GPS!)

PREVIOUSLY OWNED:83 300SD, 87 420SEL, 88 420SEL, 90 420SEL, 86 560SEL, 86 190E 2.3-16V AMG, 94 E320

I don't know that part # right off but I wouldn't use the diesel part. I'm suggesting rather to use a second center section of the M103 flywheel which happens to have a M102 part# btw. The diesels are twice as thick but are cut out to less mass. The M103 part has a larger triangular piece and when doubled will have even more mass than the diesel part.
To use the oil cooler I'm pretty sure that you'd have to use the M104 oil filter stand for that particular application. As to whether it will fit alongside the M103 intake manifold has yet to be determined and is certainly the deciding factor. I've contemplated this swap to gain a little additional oil capacity but was able to modify my original to make it the ideal feed for the turbos.
The oilers retail around 34$ i believe. I'm in the biz so I got em for less. Since they are not really a wear part, scrounging them from a dead M603 would be a possible cheaper alternative. They bolt right in..... after you drill the feed into the main galley and tap threads for the bolt hole. The bolt hole is already drilled as well as the locator dowell. The downside is that drilling and tapping can't be done with the reciprocating assemply in the block. (well at least not without extreme measures and epuipment)

Hi duxthe1,
Thanks for the reply!! So your saying, just double up the sheet metal between the crankshaft mount and the ring gear and bolt/rivet them together?? I have two flywheels lying around so I guess I could fab that no problem. As for the M104 oil cooler, yes, it's part of the oil filter assy. In the service manuals, the M103 manifold looks almost identical to the M104 CIS manifold so I imagine it would fit.... I guess I'm going to have to gamble on this one.

What did you mean by this?? "The bolt hole is already drilled as well as the locator dowel." I have a pretty good Idea where these oilers sit however; I don't see these holes and dowels. I have the block completely apart and would like to add these now if it's relatively easy to drill and tap the holes in the oil galley. Do you have the measurements so I can precisely place them in the block?? Your help would be greatly appreciated!
Thanks,
Adam

__________________
Current Stable:
01 ML55 AMG
92 500E (a few mods)
87 300E (lots of mods)
00 Chevy 3500HD Diesel Box Truck
68 18' Donzi Marine
06 GT i-Drive7 1.0 Mountain Bike (with GPS!)

PREVIOUSLY OWNED:83 300SD, 87 420SEL, 88 420SEL, 90 420SEL, 86 560SEL, 86 190E 2.3-16V AMG, 94 E320

In my block the oilers bolt in beneath each cylinder with the nozzle poking out and pointing up into the cylinder. Looking at the block from the bottom there should be a flat spot machined on one side of each cylinder. (I forget which side at the moment). In this "flat spot" there should be a larger hole maybe 15mm and two smaller holes on either side around 6mm (I think). The shallow smaller hole is the dowell and the deeper smaller hole is for the mounting bolt. To prep the block you drill a 4mm hole in the center of the larger hole. This hole will go straight into the main oil galley. I don't have to tell you to make sure to get all the chips out. I actually drilled mine with compressed air on the galley to blow chips out as they were being drilled. The neat thing about the oilers is that they have a spring loaded pad to sit over the 4mm hole you just drilled to close off supply to the oiler when there is no pressure. This keeps oil from draining out the galley when the engine isn't running. After you've got the feeds drilled you just have to tap the deeper of the smaller holes for the mounting bolt. This is another good point to emphasize caution as I actually managed to break a tap off in one of my holes. That was a real mother **%^%$ to get out, too, so be careful and go slow on that part.
If none of this adds up after inspecting your block there could be an outside chance that not all years of the M103 got the machinework at the factory. I'm thinking this is a VERY outside possibility. If I remember... before I had my block apart I had an oilpan job on an early M103 and got excited to see the machinework already done when I had the pan off of it. Up until that point I thought I was gonna have to do some full custom stuff for piston oiling. What year is your block btw?