I NOTICED A COMPANY ON THE INTERNET THAT SELLS INTERCOOLED TWIN TURBO KITS FOR 300E'S
IS THIS A GOOD IDEA, WHAT MODS NEED TO BE DONE, DOSE ANYONEHAVE ONE OF THESE KITS IN THIER 300E???

Where did you find this info?? I would like to see it.


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Benzmac:
Donnie Drummonds
300E
ASE CERTIFIED MASTER AUTO TECHNICIAN
SERVICE MANAGER FOR 14 BAY FACILITY
MERCEDES SPECIALIST 8 YRS
PARTNER IN MERCEDESSHOP.COM

I FOUND OUT ABOUT THIS KIT HERE. THIER IS ALSO A MOSSELMAN WEBSITE THAT SHOWS THE SPECS ON THIS KIT.
http://www.mesaperformance.com/wwwboard/messages/4037.html

Adam, are you sure that this is the right website? I went there, and there is NOTHING about MB items -- everything is just BMW and Porsche. ????

Try this one. Mostly in German. No prices, but impressive specs..
http://www.autopower.no/Turbo/TURBO.HTML

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Jeff Lawrence
1987 300e
1989 300e
2000 Dodge Grand Caravan SE

THANKS JEFF, THATS THE SITE I WAS LOOKING FOR I WOULD DEFINATELY LIKE TO HAVE 300 HP UNDER MY HOOD BUT, FIRST I HAVE TO WORK OUT THE REST OF THE BUGS IN MY 300E BEFORE I SLAP DOWN THE CASH FOR ONE OF THESE KITS.
IF I CAN FIND ONE.

jeffsr.
There is no German spoken on that site. The NO after autopower signifies the country is Norway so, the site is in the Norwegian
language. To get more info on it just put in www.autopower.no.

Tobias MB
399SE, 300CE, C280Sport, 190/5.0

Mosselman's kits have lousy reputations in the BMW circle. They are using 2 tiny T25s turbo putting out only extra ~95HPs @ the flywheel (I assume). that's horrible. you have Miata guys running single T3s putting down way over extra 100rwhp on only 1.8L. The Honda guys doing the same...

I think Benzmac wants to do M104 turbo assuming owner provides all monetary support. How do I sign up???

Tony

I found this web site a few days ago http://www.korman.com/
(I know, it's a BMW performance site, sorry bout that ) I emailed the tech and asked him about the availability of the Mosslman kit for the 300E's. He replied within an hour and actually had quite a bit of useful knowledge on the subbject. There was one big dissapointing factor however, the price. It was something to the tune of $8,000! Ouch!

Ryan

Hey there,
www.tdi-plc.com is a company out of the UK, and they can get the Mosselman turbo kits much cheaper than I've seen from any US companies. About Mosselman having a bad rep. in the BMW circle, well, the reason for the moderate gains is because of boost levels that the kit is set at. 5.5psi. This is a relatively small setting compared to the settings the low displacement cars run. Don't forget too, that those cars have to have many things modified, including but not limited to the entire fuel system and ignition system, lower the compression ratio. Most of the Japanese econo cars have cheap transmission parts so, pushing 100+ HP over stock you definantly need to beef up your tranny. The Mosselman 190E 16V kit utilizes a T25 Garret turbine which is relatively small, but the advantages are is the turbo requires less spool up time and also can push 15+psi. I seriously doubt anyone will want to push that much boost, unless they are drag racing and/or are boostaholics. Look at it this way, If two cars are identical, except one has a T3 turbo and one has a T25 turbo, but both are pushing 14 psi. of boost, the car with the T25 will beat the other car in a 0-60 or 0-100 or 0-1/4mile run, why???? because the spool up time of the T25 is far quicker than the larger turbo. Well, sorry to drag that out.

Regards,

Clinton Davis
'86 190E 2.3-16V

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clinton:
I seriously doubt anyone will want to push that much boost, unless they are drag racing and/or are boostaholics. Look at it this way, If two cars are identical, except one has a T3 turbo and one has a T25 turbo, but both are pushing 14 psi. of boost, the car with the T25 will beat the other car in a 0-60 or 0-100 or 0-1/4mile run, why???? because the spool up time of the T25 is far quicker than the larger turbo. Well, sorry to drag that out.

---

Hmm.. why would you doubt the existence of 'boostaholics'? I know Benzmac's one, so am I.

'Far greater'? Can you quantify that? It seems the above blanket statement regarding turbos can be easily disproven. A T3 running 1 bar @ WOT would probably flow significantly more air than a T25. One can assume the turbo 'lag' of a typical T25 is less than a T3; however, it is quite possible a T3-ed car will produce enough HP/TQ# at the top end to easily overrun the T25. Who would actually win the 1320 depends on too many variables:

1) What type of T25 and T3s are being used? ie, are the wheels clipped? Are the turbos hybrids? etc.
2) What type of engine/boost management?
3) What type of motor? ie, porting? Displacement, etc
4) How heavy is the car in question?
5) How are the cars launched?
6) Who's driving? =)

I'd be willing to bet some money and possibly my other (turboed) car on a well tuned T3-ed W124 M104 easily outrunning another similiar car speced with T25. If your 'fact' is indeed true, why would [import] drag racers continue to slap on bigger (T66+) turbos???

Tony
300CE
* not a physics major... all comments welcome!

[This message has been edited by TonyC (edited 09-27-2000).]

I think he may have meant a car with two T25's, rather than one T25 vs one T30, if there was only one, once on the revs, the T30 would push much more air,

and I think that's why import dragters go for one biggerone, it's simpler, and they don't really spend that much time in the lower rev range. besides could you imagine all the plumbing (nightmares) for a twin turbo set up on an inline 4? Especially under the hood of a civic?

Just my opinion, but the two small turbo set up with low boost, provides better midrange punch than a bigger single turbo might.

while Clinton is true about spoolup times, in general, i don't believe that it overcomes the seat of the pants rush once the bigger one's on the push.

In my experience, I put a bigger turbo on my starion, and it was more of a beast, never timed it, but it seemed like it was much stronger when on boost. and was easier to break the rears loose.

I can see your point(s), but what I'm trying to say is that if both (T3 and T25) turbos are pushing 10psi. on two identical cars with the same driver, wouldn't the T25 win b/c of the quicker spool up? I mean, boost is boost. 10psi on a T25 turbine is = to 10psi on a T3 turbine, right? It all depends on which turbo reaches max boost quicker, no? I know that the T3 can push more boost than the T25, no question, I'm not sure about the limits but lets say that the T3 can reach up to 25psi. and the T25 only 16psi. Of course, at Max boost the T3 wins easy, but most vehicles have boost limits which regulates the amount of boost the car takes. For example, the Mosselman turbo kit for a 2.3-16V is 5.5psi or 0.38 bar. Of course this can be adjusted with a boost controller. I may be missing something here, but I'm always up for enlightenment.

Regards,

Clinton Davis
'86 190E 2.3-16V

10 psi on T25 != 10 psi on T3
go to : http://www.turbocharged.com/catalog/comp_wheels.html and take a look at the compressor dimensions. (they don't list a T25 but I think the point is made). Bigger wheels == more air @ same psi. 2x T25s vs 2x T3s? The T3s would still win the 1/4 mi.

Tony
* hating the CIS in the 90 300CE/M104 right now...

not to be too redundant of Tony,
but while the PSI may be the same, the volume of air is different thus, at a certain RPM, the smaller turbo may not beable to maintain the same level of CFM (cubic feet/minute) of air thru the motor.

simple example
if the engine can flow 200 CFM at 8k rpm w/o a turbo, then with a turbo, the turbo needs to provide excess of that flow to maintain positive 2x boost at that RPM (say 400 CFM)

if your smaller turbo maxes out at a lower CFM say 350, than it may not beable to really provide same boost at higher rpm levels as a larger 410 CFM turbo

This is how I understand it, please redirect me if I'm in accurate.

Russ